The final word on Moshiach from the meisim (hopefully!)
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July 11, 2023 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #2207558RSoParticipant
anyPotato: “I forgot to add you clearly have also not seen the Yad Ramah to kegoin Doniel… Nor even the maharsha or the arugas haboisem or the maharsham”
You are right that I had not seen the Yad Ramah, but now I have, and as far as I can tell he says exactly the same thing that Rashi did. That is, that if Mashiach is someone who died it must have been Daniel because there was no one else to compare to him.
As to the Maharsha, I certainly had seen it. He doesn’t say anything that could disagree with anything I have written.
I am having trouble figuring out where you see proofs in either of the above. I get the feeling that it’s like the old European joke proving that one has to wear a head-covering. “Vayetzei Yaakov… Now, could you imagine Yaakov goind anywhere without a covering his head?” Your ‘proofs’ are only proof if you decided on what they are going to prove before you read them.
As to the Maharsham – no, I have not seen it, and I don’t think I’ll look it up. But I have a question for you? When was the last time you, or 99% of Lubavichers, looked up a Yad Ramah or a Maharsham when you weren’t trying to prove something that it doesn’t say in Rashi or Tosfos? Would I be right in saying, never?
And that is my major complaint. You want to prove something you WANT to be the case, so you search for a (usually non-existent) proof. You are not searching for the truth, which is the way Torah-Yidden are supposed to learn Torah.
In my opinion, that is THE major problem with Chabad today.
July 11, 2023 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #2207562RSoParticipantanyPotato: “@RSo clearly you have not read his book.”
I’ve already said that I have no intention of reading any book written with an agenda that I believe is dangerous to Yidden.
“Rashi says if it’s someone from the living NOW and if it’s someone who died ALREADY it’s Doniel. Ie in the future it can be anyone that lives or dies.”
Could you please explain the logic of your “that is” (I assume that’s what your Ie means)? Where did you get that it can be anyone who has died after Daniel?
“After rebbi died Rav would likely think Rebbi could still be Moshiach.”
Now you’re telling us what Rav WOULF LIKELY HAVE THOUGHT despite there being no indication of such in the gemoro! I thought that only the Lubavicher rebbe was a novi and knew what was in people’s hearts and minds. It seems at least one of his chassidim is too.
“Again you are showing your Am Aratzus and clearly have not read the book that you are trying to trash…. Not such an intelligent position to have….”
I didn’t trash the book. I am totalling ignoring it. And once again. thanks to the mods for letting anyPotato’s amusing post through without deleting it.
July 11, 2023 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #2207580Yserbius123Participant@anyPotatoKugelLeft You keep telling people “read the book, read the book”. I can also write a book using Gemaras and Rishonim to say whatever I want. Point is, that no Talmid Chacham worth his salt will approve my words.
That’s what’s happening here. Mr. Lieberman wrote a book that goes against what all Gedolim, Rabbonim, Rebbes, and Talmidei Chachamim say. I will take their word against his without even glancing at what he has to say.
And that, my friend, is the final word on the subject.
July 11, 2023 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #2207591Neville Chaim BerlinParticipant“And that, my friend, is the final word on the subject.”
Hurray! OK, so, moving on. What do you guys think about Zionism?
July 12, 2023 1:23 am at 1:23 am #2207695Yserbius123Participant@NevilleChaimBerlin rabid foaming at the mouth screaming shouting sitra acher ikviseh d’meshichteh rav kook rav blau gimmel shavuous apikoros fool
July 16, 2023 10:04 am at 10:04 am #2208571yankel berelParticipantThe BIGGEST SOURCE – IN HABADS EYES – That Mashiach is only from the live people is HABAD ITSELF . Wall to wall , pre 1996.
Since when is Habad itself , not acceptable to Habad ????
Any Answers , anyone ?????July 16, 2023 10:05 am at 10:05 am #2208572yankel berelParticipantThis whole thread is a reflection of modern Habads influence and brainwash .
our Greatgrandfathers & mothers were not busy with “candidates” for Mashiach . And nor should we.
Rambam wasnt busy with it . Bet Yosef was not . Rama was not . Baal HaTanya was not . and Ben Ish Chai was not either .
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Cf Tanya ,were he says [free translation ]
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WHERE IS THAT NEW MINHAG COMING FROM – SOMETHING OUR FOREFATHERS NEVER KNEW – TO ASK A TSADIK WHERE ONES PARNASAH IS COMING FROM ? THE TSADIK DOESNT KNOW THAT ! LIKE HE DOES NOT KNOW WHO MASHIACH IS , HE ALSO DOES NOT KNOW WHERE A MANS PARNASAH WILL COME FROM AS BOTH OF THOSE THINGS ARE ONE OF THE SEVEN THING WHICH ARE MECHUSIN MIBNE ADAM ! THE ONLY TACHLIT OF GOING TO A TSADIK IS ONLY IN ORDER TO HEAR, WHERE AND HOW THE PETITIONER CAN IMPROVE IN HIS AVODAT HASHEM …..
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Clear from Tanyas words that all of this is mere speculation , non productive and frowned upon .
But who cares about tanya anymore …. We will cherry-pick only what suits us …..July 20, 2023 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #2210002sechel83Participantanyone who says that moshiach can not come from tthe dead, is a kofer in torah. (he’s arguing with a clear gemarah)
July 21, 2023 9:40 am at 9:40 am #2210074DaMosheParticipantsechel you win the prize for Most Ridiculous Post to ever be posted in the Coffee Room!
July 23, 2023 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #2210360YsiegelParticipant@Rso
I take issue with what you say…
I’m not the biggest lamdan, unfortunately – I wasn’t in yeshiva long enough to reach the higher classes of limud, but quite a few of my friends, in this Lubavitch/Chabad yeshiva, are extremely well versed in Rishonim, Achronim, Ge’onim…Some of them, younger than I at the time, were well versed in several tractates, to the point that you can show them a Rashi/Tosfos and they’d instantly give you a lengthy pilpul (including chidushim by the Lubavitcher Rebbe) without so much as a minute to review the contents of the page (I have seen this several times with my own eyes, sometimes to questions I have posed to them myself). This is not to mention the ramim, whose classes would be your typical hour and a half of chakira into a Rashi, line of Gemara, Akiva Iger, or the likes.It is not very well known, I suppose, but the Lubavitcher Rebbe was adamant that Chabad yeshiva bochurim be well versed in Gemara, Halacha, etc., and that they should write chidushei Torah (to this day a booklet is printed in every Chabad yeshiva with chidushim from the students, some chidusim in Nigleh, and some in Chassidus).
So no, the issue isn’t that Chabad doesn’t learn these things. It’s that the “face of Chabad” is a bunch of simple minded children (whether adult children or physically young children is irrelevant) who give the rest of Chabad — that part of it which rarely browses the internet, like me, and which doesn’t take any interest in mindless debates regarding things which were never really emphasized by the Rebbe to the extent that these crazies make it seem — a bad name…
I give in to my curiosity once in a while and browse over these forums, with a mixture of entertainment and sadness playing a symphony within me as I read…and once in a while I make it a point to emphasize those of us who belong to a group within Chabad which does its best to stay true to the true path the Rebbe ztz”l left for us as our leader, living up to his example.
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