RCA Statement Regarding Chabad Messianism

conservatives started in Europe, I think.

The intention of JTS was for it to be Orthodox. That is a fact. Why deny it?

CJ in America really started postwar. It rose and fell with the move to the suburbs.

It came from pursuing the promise of The American Dream. Which has nothing to do with MO or Reform.

As much as we convince ourselves otherwise, the fact is that there is more of a gap between Conservative and the other non-Orthodox groups than between Conservative and Orthodox. There is a steady grade form extreme Orthodox to Conservative. After that, there is a steep drop. Then it’s another steady grade all the way through the new category of ‘Jews with No Religion’.

Dear Always,

Reform came from the ability of European Jews to assimilate. It was like a half assimilation.

You can’t really become Reform anymore. They aren’t promoting anything Jewish.

Dear Avira,

Your history is still all wrong.

[like Mordecai Kaplan… You picked the most unique person of his time. There was nobody else remotely like him. Same thing with Lieberman. A top level gaon. Not many like him anywhere. There was no common denominator. These two disagreed on everything.]

But your main problem is that you only count those that live up to your standards of the group.

So the solid guys in yeshiva are obviously no longer MO. And the drop outs are. The baal habatim better be careful….

The YV has the same tolerance for heresy. In the modern day people can’t be coerced to think alike.

N0m: There is little gap between the Reform and the Conservatives. The gap between Orthodox and Conservative is unbreachable . For examples, on the issues of homosexual conduct (officially approved by Conservative), female clergy (officially approved by Conservative), driving and violating Shabbos (officially approved by Conservative), eating non-kosher out of the home (officially approved by Conservative), etc. Conservative is a completely different religion from Judaism (what they call Orthodox) just as Reform is.

The Conservative and Reform each accept each other’s fake pseudo-“conversions”, whereas the Orthodox rejects the “conversions” of both the Conservative and Reform — and deems them all as remaining Gentile.

And Mr. Saul Lieberman from the JTS was the biggest apostate of them all.

N0m: Additionally, the Conservatives are pretty close to officially supporting intermarriage. Even though their so-called “Rabbinical Assembly” hasn’t yet declared they’re changing their religious law to say it’s okay (which they’ve already done with numerous other religious laws, including some of which I mentioned in the other comment), the Conservative “rabbis” already often officiate over their Congregants intermarriages.

Whereas the Reform movement probably has somewhere between close to 50% to an actual majority of their adherents who are halachicly goyim (intermarriages, fake conversions, patrilineal descent and over a century of decendants of all the preceding), by the Conservatives the percentage of their members who are not Jewish is between 25% to 33%.

Eating non Kosher out of the home, is still a hot topic in CJ. You can still find a Conservative Yid who is meticulous about kashrus. We have been through this one before.

I don’t think the Kanievsky’s would have had anything to do with Lieberman if he was such an apostate.

Dear Ujm,

Just because Conservative is nearer to MO in religious issues, it doesn’t mean that it is related to MO in any way. They certainly were influenced by very different characters. And they share no similar origins.

“The truth is that the Conservative movement in America was started jointly by the left-wing of the Orthodox movement together with the right-wing of the Reform movement.”

So in plain English, nothing to do with MO.

N0m: the MO *are*’ the left-wing of the Orthodox.

Before Rav Moshe came to America, there was very little Orthodoxy in America other than MO. A sizable traditional Orthodox community in America, aside from MO, only occurred in the postwar period with the influx of European Jewry to American shores in the post-Holocaust period. The trickle started coming in the leadup to WWII as well as during the war period. But the large numbers came postwar.

As usual , ujm gets his facts wrong. The Conssrvatuve movement had it’s origins in the 1883 treife Reform banquet where shellfish and pork was served to emphasize their abandonment of kashrus. The more moderate reformers left and, in 1887, founded JTS in an attempt to unite all Reformers who were not radical. JTS was never Orthodox.

@n0mesorah I thought that cars on Shabbos was a thing that Conservative allowed since the early 20th century? I would think that that’s a bigger divide than mechitzas. Especially since at the time many left wing “Orthodox” American shuls didn’t have mechitzas, but no one openly drove.

N0m: I understand that you have close family that identifies as Conservative Jews, but Mr. Zechariah Frankel was a clear and unambiguous heretic even in his time as noted by the Rabbonim during his lifetime, just like the entire Conservative movement that models themselves on Frankel’s ideas are as well.

Note that the Rebbe Rayatz specifically didnt join the aguda, now we know why…

Dear Yserbius,

Of the top of my head, cars was 1950. It’s a big line from outside Conservative. But within CJ it’s not so real. The upright still do not drive on Shabbos. And there is a significant amount that only drives where they believe it is permitted. As we know, electricity in general is a major problem as we get to the edges of OJ.

It comes down to this. If you believe that the real meaning of life is to march around how great we are as Jews and we represent the ultimate fidelity to the Revelation, than the CJ is on the wrong side of the divide. With a chunk of the LW of OJ. So go on parading yourself as God’s Gift. It’s a good fit for others who parade for other abominations.

But if you believe that Hashem instills everything with meaning and purpose and all that matters is to serve Him, then you know with all your being that these labels are the creation of man. And while they may be useful, they are meaningless in the Ultimate. When we look at the American Jewish scene from the angle of observance, it is one depressing slide until it falls of a cliff after Mainstream Conservative Judaism.

Around the time of WWI, there were probably more Rabbonim from Poland, Lita, Ukraine, or Russia, than from all of Western Europe combined. Germany just had it’s best period for the Jews. Eastern European Jews had been steadily migrating for forty years.

There were over a dozen Chassidishe Rebbes that came to America before Rav Moshe. And a similar number of yeshivos. The problem was the assimilation of the second generation immigrants. It had nothing to do with the brand of Orthodoxy.

Dear Anonymous,

The Rabbinical staff of JTS was almost exclusively Orthodox until 1960. It was an institution for both Orthodox and Conservative students.

I thought the problem with CJ is the lack of commitment to the Mitzvos. If you can delineate what exactly makes CJ heretical, than you can save Avi Weiss a lot of grief. Alternatively, you can place him firmly on the Conservative side of the line. Which he has tenaciously resisted.

But alas you cannot. Other than grandiose claims that make no sense, your arguments on these baiting topics get you nowhere. You’ll try a few more times, and then you’ll go silent. I don’t take these issues personally, so I am ready to answer all your revisionism honestly.

Nom, you’re completely off about zecharya frankel. He was put in cherem. His books say open kefirah, that the tannaim made psakim due to personal bias and societal influence.

It’s not how you “interpret” his words. He was a complete apikores; rav hirsch said so many times. I don’t know why you have a soft spot for maskilim, but it’s not the first time you’ve said completely demonstrably wrong statements about them.

I think R Hirsh’s disagreement w/ scientific (Wissenschaft) method is not just w/ Frankel but also with other Orthodox school of R Ezriel Hildesheimer. R Hildesheimer though also considered Frenkel treif, so you may want to analyze their differences to understand Frankel positioning.

And even further, it seems that later German sources – R Weinberg – quote Frankel with more respect, maybe because there is less urgency in the machlokes. So, it may be true that at the same time, Frankel initiated a movement that let people astray, and have some valid points to make.
Why is this important? Maybe because we should not through babies into the mikvah: just because someone disagreeable mentions an idea, does not always mean that the idea is wrong.

i have no clue who tjs, r hirsh, r hildesheimer, r weinberg are, so i have no comment, litvaks should do the same, if you dont know anything about mosiach, chassidus. rebbe, dont argue, criticize. definatlly you could learn, you can learn gemarah perek hachelek, then bring youre arguments with Jewish mekoros, not christian

Sechel, you’ve never heard of rav shamshon refoel Hirsch?

Have you ventured even slightly outside of crown heights, ever?

I feel sorry for you.

The face of yiddishkeit worldwide was far more influenced by rav hirsch than the Lubavitcher rebbes; all of them, except the baal hatanya, because his psakim were accepted by many, many chasidishe communities.

Sechel, I am sorry we all jumped on you at the same time! Consider it fortuitous that you were brave enough to ask a question and discovered a kesher to your Rebbe!