Is YU officially a modern-Orthodox institution?

ubiq: Both homosexuality and pedophilia are considered to be sexual orientations. The homosexual orientation affects fewer people than the pedophilic orientation.

ubiq: How on earth would you know that. Do you have any proof?

UJM

No need to repeat yourself
If you have a source by all means I’d be interested

Ubiq: Why are you accepting at face value that homosexuality is a more prevalent problem than pedophilia? The research is readily and easily available. But you admit above that you do not know the comparative figures. As such, you should have the humility to not deny the problem of pedophilia.

Rather than defend Y.U. on the basis you have, you should be questioning the lack of a Y.U. Pedophilia Support Club.

UJM

I have no idea what you are talking about

YOU brought up pedophilia. Why don’t you back it up *

To answer your questions
Why are you accepting at face value that homosexuality is a more prevalent problem than pedophilia?”
Because The research is readily and easily available.
AND because we are discussing an LGBT club. as they say the proof is in the pudding.

” But you admit above that you do not know the comparative figures.”

I admitted no such thing . It is easy to Google plus puk chazi (l’havdil elef alfei havdolas) plus

” As such, you should have the humility to not deny the problem of pedophilia.”
I never denied the problem

* (i’m not really asking, I know why it is because you are not an honest person)

Ujm

“According to research, approximately 1.7% of the population…”

Yiu accidently wrote the number backwards
Gallup poll in Feb 2022 estimated 7.1 %

And I enjoyed that you stuck in “exclusive” as if oh it’s not exclusive then it’s ok

Ubiq, a recognized club will draw way more members. Many young men will come out of the closet if this is normalized, thus leading to way more illicit relationships

Ubiq: I’m discussing exclusively homosexual for a reason. If someone is bisexual that indicates he can be attracted to both genders. As such, in regards to our discussion of helping Jews who have no other outlet for their taaivos other than their same gender, that point isn’t relevant to those who are bisexual, since they can find a shidduch of the opposite gender. Studies have consistently shown that a majority of people who say they experience homosexual taaivos, also say that they are attracted to the opposite gender as well, thereby those taaivos are non-exclusive. So for the purposes of this discussion, it is correct to focus on those with exclusive taaivos only.

The Gallup poll is an outlier and inconsistent. According to Gallup, if you take them at their word per the polling results, the percentage of the US population that identifies as homosexual has DOUBLED between 2012 and 2022. Do you credibly believe there was a doubling of this population in literally ten years? Public opinion issue pollsters such as Gallup, Harris, Marist, etc. have long been known to produce desired results for a left-wing audience. They consistently cater their results to comply with the left’s expectations. Also note that Gallup’s poll makes a cholent of combining transsexual, bisexual and homosexual all in that one figure that you quoted.

Other, more academic, research have shown significantly lower figures. The General Social Survey in 2017 reports it is 2.4%. ( sda dot berkeley dot edu/sdaweb/analysis/?dataset=gss16 ) in the US. Internationally, the Psychological Science in the Public Interest reports that less than 2% of the overall population identify as exclusively homosexual ( www dot researchgate dot net/publication/301639075 ).

With a larger percent of the population being attracted to children than to the same gender, it is clear the problem of pedophilia should be addressed with at least greater priority than the problem of homosexuality. Even if we were to accept the Gallup figure of 7% (which in reality, as explained above, is an unrealistic figure and combines the number with transsexual, bisexual, etc.), even that is within the same ballpark as the 5% of the population that is attracted to children. As such, you still cannot deny that the aveira of pedophilia (which also severely victimizes innocent children) should be addressed with at least the same alarcity as that of the aveira of homosexuality.

AAQ: Your point is absolutely correct. See my citations above.

Ubiq, au contraire – YU kids have no problem holding hands with their sin partners in public, because it’s tolerated by the community. They walk beraish galei into movie theaters, hand in hand. Check out what goes on in teaneck or Flatbush before everyone moved out of there. Once toeva becomes more out in the open, they will only do it more.

Already that’s happening. Remember the homosexual couple a few weeks ago who were married, with one of them dressing up as a man? This man was thrown out of a Flatbush day school because the girls could tell he was a man, and they were disgusted.

Guess what? He says that in Washington heights everyone is very accepting of him and his “husband”, who wears a hat and jacket and is involved with yeshiva college as a liasion and teacher of Hebrew. Yeshiva college wished his sin family a mazel tov on social media on the arrival of their adopted son, who if converted, is not jewish at all, as they either went to a fake OO beis din or tricked a real beis din into converting the kid.

vira
I’m not sure what your last comment added
to remind you where We are.

You raised concern that the group i question will make it easier to find each other (leading to more averia)
To which I replied that I hear you though am not so concerned, because there already is such a group (remebemr thats how the whole story began the yare suing for official recognition, but the group exists) . The only thing that would change is that the Yeshiva would have some say over it .

I don’t understand what your last comment adds.

If you are raising a new concern that an officially sanctioned club would lead to acceptance . Again I hear, though society is heading down that road anyway . and I’m not convinced this leads to acceptance. ITs hear we know it we dont need to accept it. Same as Guard your eyes, or machsom lfi does it lead to “acknowledging that we say Lashon hara” ? Obviously, but we all know that. Same here the problem exists as you say ” kids have no problem holding hands with their sin partners in public,” So what now ?

We can ignore it, and hope it will go away (and write those people out of Orthodoxy)
Or we can acknowledge it and provide support.

In short if I understand your new concern correctly; that it lends them support / brings it out into the open. As you already acknowledge the yare already out in the open

Smerel well put.

My only quibble is I think in theory an official “club” is a good idea. In practice I agree I don’t think this is that. I don’t think many will join, this is not what those suing want. , and the administration knows that. I suspect thhis is a ploy to have a “club” on paper to help YU legally

It’s been over 6 months. Are the modern people still pretending that the meeting club for gay people is somehow supposed to discourage gayness, or are they finally admitting that YU just straight up condoned one of the most serious issurim because their liberalism is more important to them than Torah?

ubiq: Even if it doesn’t lead to more people practicing toeiva, condoning, supporting, normalizing and legitimizing those who already practice toeiva is disgusting and kneged haTorah.

ujm

lol your’e wrong take was wrong then it remains wrong today.

NC

“Has there been any organized recognition of the fact that this is likely worse than anything the Open Orthodoxy ever did? ”
Nope

not sure why you limit it to 2 things neither of which is correct
The correct thing is it simply is not an condoning any issurim. You can say it again and again it won’t suddenly become true

ujm

That taiva has an outlet (chulin 109b)

ujm

I doubt thats true (wouldn’t be the first tiem you made something up in this thread alone)
but ok, I’m convinced if they do they do start the club

The club doesn’t exist and has held no meetings, it was an attempt from YU to avoid losing money and doing what the NY governments want them to do.

ubiq: Let me inform you otherwise. You likely exaggerate the mishkov zochor frequency and you might underestimate the eishes ish instances. (Speak to Rabbonim in the parsha and they can sadly inform you what’s going on.) Most otherwise frum men with SSA do not engage in mishkov zochor. And, likewise, most otherwise frum men with a taaiva for eishes ish do not engage in that.

According to current secular scientific surveys, 2% of men are exclusively homosexual. (I’d very strongly argue for several very good reasons that stat is a gross exaggeration, but for purposes of our discussion we’ll go with this figure.) Assuming 2% of frum men have exclusive SSA, we can also count on that most of those frum men refrain from mishkav zochor, given the terrible sin it is. Same with eishes ish. But eishes ish is a taaiva of the other 98% of men. So it is approximately 50 men with eishes ish taaivos to every 1 man with exclusive homosexual taaivos. (Again, approximately. Don’t get hung up whether it’s 50 to 1 or if it is 47 to 1 or whatever.) Even if you assume more men with exclusive SSA sin than other men, given such a huge disparity in comparative starting populations, the larger percentage of SSA sinners will still be a vastly smaller number of actual persons than the smaller percentage of non-SSA (exclusive) sinners.

P.S. Chazal say that a special taaiva for eishes ish (rather than for other single women) is definitely a thing that exists, and is not a negligible taaiva. But this Chazal isn’t even necessary to consider to accept my preceding points. It’s just another cherry on the top.

“Speak to Rabbonim in the parsha and they can sadly inform you what’s going on.”

I have, thats why I’m convinced such a support system is necessary.

“Most otherwise frum men with SSA do not engage in mishkov zochor. And, likewise, most otherwise frum men with a taaiva for eishes ish do not engage in that.”

Exactly! nailed it
thats why the two aren’t comparable. The former struggle/have issues whether they engage or not
the latter not so much.

“But this Chazal isn’t even necessary to consider to accept my preceding points.”

Ive already accepted your point

“but ok, I’m convinced if they do they do start the club”
No need to convince me further.

If you think its needed go for it. Start it