What Happened To the Forum I Loved so Well?

Re: CTL,
I can’t fully discuss what exactly his upbringing was, I was not there. I do agree that pre-war and later American Jewish life was in bad state. I heard from R Nosson Sherman that his father would tell his elderly members of the shiur to come even during bad weather – “because who knows whether there will be a shiur after you”. Not clear where things were better. Chofetz Chaim letters c. 1920 from Poland talk about not sending kids to anti-religious schools, closer to 1930 he talks more and more about at least keeping Shabbos, Nida, having at least one kosher cheder per town, and even a suggestion for T’Ch to travel to different towns because maybe people who did not listen to one T’Ch would listen to another one.

Did things improve by now? On one hand yes, we have big observant communities. On the other hand, “the rest” of the Jews look completely lost, as Chofetz Chaim was warning about. In 1960-90s there were a significant number of baalei teshuva, which I think is not happening to the same degree now.

“Why cant we find an option here to edit/delete our posts and accounts?”

Amazing idea!

Imagine posting something and someone replies to it and then you change your whole post so the other guy looks like an idiot!

Brilliant!

Really interesting to hear all this backround info. I just joined couple of months ago. This is really facsinating. Thank you Neville.

Coffee addict, a site that doesn’t allow you to delete your account is in violation. Hello reality 🙂

Neville: You’ll also need to change it to a fictitious email in order to prevent yourself from doing a password reset.

Mod, i disagree; teshuva works to undo one’s wrongdoings. If someone wrote something that he now realizes is assur or a bad hashkofa, and he doesn’t want it to be out there….i don’t see why he shouldn’t be given that right.

n0mesorah,

“I basically learned how to read from this site. All the times you posted about corrupting kids? I was tht kid. And, thank you for the fascinating view of how we yidden can be schismatic.”

While the majority of participants in the CR are frum Jews, I think the CR only reflects the CR, and is not necessarily representative of the frum world.

“Should I continue?”

By all means!

Aveirah, I will give you a bracha, based on your post. May you realize the errors of your hashkafos, and do a full teshuva for all you’ve done wrong here.

What is the big deal with hashkafic posts? People grow and change and learn more about others and (hopefully) come out an improved person. If we wouldn’t share our possibly incorrect views, how would we be corrected? Everyone’s outlook is always changing. At the very least, I learn new ways of presenting things to people that are from a different background.

You know your really close to someone when s/he shares with you his perspectives that changed over time.

There is no issur to say bad hashkafa. If someone has a wrong worldview, the fact that they have to live with it is it’s own consequence. For example, I think I’m allowed to say that anti semitism is only because of our religious lifestyles even though it’s a ridiculous statement.

Please explain this to me.

No issur to say bad hashkofos??

Let’s start with megaleh ponim.

Then let’s go to bizayon hatorah. Ziyuf hatorah.

But no big deal because his body is not doing anything wrong!

Nom, actually, making divrei torah into divrei havai is assur – this is why we aren’t allowed to teach gemara to women.

The velt asks a kasha – aren’t men motzi divrei torah ledivrei havai sometimes? The answer is that men have to learn, and it’s a risk we need to take. As long as we’re trying hard to learn properly, we aren’t punished. We’re onsim. But if someone in fact does not endeavor to learn properly, but instead wants the torah to fit his own preconceived notions… yes, he is guilty of megaleh ponim and bizui, ziyuf Hatorah.

Hashkofa is certainly divrei torah. It’s all over chazal and pesukim. …agadeta, medrash, all are hashkofa oriented. You make a birchas hatorah on such limudim. What in the world would give you the impression otherwise?

Nom, you don’t need to make a bracha on the statement “pig is treif,” and you’re allowed to answer yes or no shailos in the bathroom.

Talking about why(insert italics) Zionists are kofrim, or why feminism is anti Torah, which would go through mekoros in chumash, chazal, etc .. Would require a bracha.

Dear Avira,

Are you saying that proving ‘pig is not trief’ is megalah panim et alia? I think that would be correct. But I think that if we are wrong on this, that would not be a problem. It’s a mistake with no implications beyond what we would actually be wrong about. Meaning, someone would post ‘proofs’ that pig is kosher, and you and I would say that he is a megaleh et cetra, and Eliyahu would say he is not [Shrug. It’s a hypothetical anyways. Even today the mods won’t let it.] I think at least we would not be megaleh panim batorah, because nobody is going to eat pig or not based on how we label this wrongheaded poster. Since we weren’t advising anyone to do an issur, we were nothing other than mistaken. and we get rewarded both for stopping people from eating pig. And Limud HaTorah, eve though we erred. That’s my take. Would you say that we would be in the category of megaleh panim for wrongly saying that the poster is in said category?

PS Which of the above statements would be heresy in the reverse? Not just wrong. Actual heresy.

The Mishnah berurah quotes the chayei odom who says, based on rishonim, that one who believes in “thoughts that are opposed to the daas that the torah is built on” violates lo sasuru. Feminism is definitely in that category, since it can be proven that the daas that the torah imparts to us requires gender role separation and requires women to be in a socially and religiously different role than men. Thinking that women should be treated the same or given the same responsibilities is definitely apikorsus, such as thinking that women need to learn gemara, wear Tefilin, tzitzis, make kiddush at home, etc..

But you misunderstood my intention. I was saying that your one liners are a bad representation of hashkofa, because they’re statements without context, proofs, sources, etc, the kind of thing that requires a bracha.

It’s not that the topic itself isn’t torah, it’s that the statement is too simple to require a bracha, like stating “pig is treif” or “you’re not allowed to steal” –

If i say “i love Hashem” that statement doesn’t require a bracha, but saying veahavta es Hashem Elokecha does, as would a discussion of what that mitzvah requires.

So saying “feminism is treif” is not significant enough to require a bracha; it’s not that the topic itself isn’t torah, it’s that the statement isn’t enough.

“ I would imagine that alarge part of Feminisms are against the Torah. I never got an answer why Feminisms in general are counter to everything.”

Just putting it out there, the Rebbe saw feminism as an essentially positive movement at its core, that was there because the world was shifting towards the feminine- as will be completed fully when moshiach comes (all over Chassidus on the pesukim אשת חיל עטרת בעלה and נקבה תסובב גבר) but emphasized that the secular implications that women could be and should be as good as men with careers etc. was erroneous, and also anti feminism, because it implies that women have to be like men in order to be worth something. Torah is the true feminism that celebrates women’s qualities. Women were spoken to first by Matan Torah, where we started off, and women will bring us to the completion of the Geula.

But there were things The Rebbe did as part of embracing this era of feminism that were not done before, such as sichos just for women, encouraging women to speak up and give their opinion, special mivtzoim for women in and much more

The Lubavitcher Rebbe

CS – outside of chabad, “the rebbe” can mean anyone. If anyone’s noticed, whenever speaking about the Lubavitcher rebbe, i always refer to him as such, even more than once in a sentence. That’s because i don’t appreciate the monopolization of the term “rebbe” being used to denote one specific rebbe, as opposed to dozens and hundreds of others who were greater than he was.

What you describe is similar to how kiruv people “drei” words and ideas to not be combative and be accommodating of modernity as much as possible without breaking halacha or hashkofa constraints. So “feminism” to the Lubavitcher rebbe seems to be a treif manifestation of an overall positive shift that he claims the world is going towards with geulah.

Ok, let that be the case for arguments sake. So is Christianity, according to the rambam. Should we teach people that Christianity is kosher? We have a Torah which teaches us what Hashem hates and what He approves of. Apikorsus is evil and baalei teshuvah need to learn that at some point; it’s not something you lead off with, but this is part of why MO and Chabad churn out half baked gerim and BTs; they pull punches and water things down, either with secularism (MO) or with watered down kabalah(chabad).

Avira,
“ Ok, let that be the case for arguments sake. So is Christianity, according to the rambam. Should we teach people that Christianity is kosher? We have a Torah which teaches us what Hashem hates and what He approves of. ”

So as stated, the secular manifestation of feminism is
wrong. The reason I mentioned the underlying theme is because too many women, feminism represents the idea that women are valued as much as men, as that wasn’t the case in the past. So The Rebbe latched into that
theme and showed how we have this in Torah so we don’t need modern feminism which is actually anti women/ family etc

Cs, that version of what you said is better, but to secular people, “being of the same value”(which they are, Hashem loves women just as much as men) means equality in halacha and community. They consider it devaluing if they can’t lead prayers, wear tefilin, be rabbis, etc…

So what the Lubavitcher rebbe said did not address teaching the women the beauty of jewish femininity; the akeres habayis, the stronghold of emunah, the calm nurturing mother, the builder of klal yisroel, the daughter of Hashem – those are things beis yaakov teaches to inspire Jewish girls. And they don’t feel any less valuable because of it. Why couldn’t the Lubavitcher rebbe do the same?

Dear Avirah,

No I understood you. But I think we disagree about what megaeh panim applies to. I only apply it to where one is changing or misguiding the law. And not where one makes a mistake in his studies. I don’t apply it to someone who makes up his own ideology. Even if he is a rasha for doing so.

So…. Back to the topic… Why is bad hashkafa such a big deal?

Megaleh panim batorah shlo k’halacha?

Ki dvar Hashem bazah?

Lo sasuru?

These all seem out of place to me.

If the post is saying that this hashkafa nullifies a part of the Torah ch”v, then it falls into these categories. But the idea of modifying Torah to fit our hashkafos is the problem. Not the hashkafa itsef.

I would use this model even for ideas like hedonism.

in chabad chinuch yes, but i am referring to their outreach. they are not teaching yiddishkeit if they are teaching that feminism isnt so bad. they should be teaching jewish femininity to BTs too, but in ways that they can relate to. They should highlight how society objectifies women and that the torah places great kedushah on them, and how that relates to tznius and abstinence,