Being able to Fargin; Nature or Nurture?

to cantoresg… page3..and the archeologists statements is as valid ‘ k’moshe mipi hagvurah’?, are these the kind of people that you rely on ‘historical truths’?(remember article ‘charedi weeklies’ may 3, 08?, wont go searching again so kinly cantor esq..have always ready at your fingertips, because we are not going to let anyone forget about your anti ‘myth bearing, revisionist ‘ rabbis which was and is tzaddikai gedolai oilom..) so what shmutz archeologists say, is hitorical truths, but what, lets say , the wholy tzadik, einikel of the chasam soifer writes in ‘chut hamshilesh’ is mythbearing, now we got you more into your net, ‘bor kurh vyachpereihu, vayipol beshacas yifol…tehilem 4-5 (?0

Back to the original question: yes, we definitely should fargin.

Why does one need to believe this story about in order to understand the importance of not being jealous of others? I, like several other posters, believe that it’s likely that the Rebbetzin was somehow mistaken in her information (although I don’t believe she is C”V trying to mislead anyone), but the fact that this story can’t be verified by outside sources doesn’t negate the importance of this particular midah.

to think big, I did not recall writng anything negative in any posting about “why yidden are best’ and so I went back and read your posting and the indication about the words that were written by me. And, you know what, I do indeed have to ask mechilleh from the people I have insulted. As they say in hilchos teshuvo, “kechatuo kein teshuvuso”, as I sinned on this website, I have to ask mechillah and make teshuvah on this website.

I retract my terms about the litvishe oilam, especially the words about “sonei yisroel”. (I do not remember writing it, but I’ll take your word for it.)That truly is impardonable. I will retract my other words about them too,which I will not mention again.

I will stick to my determination not to call people any kind of names. Again, I will aks mechillah on this website from people I have insulted.It was done in a intemperate moment and I deeply feel sorry for it.

However, this is does NOT mean that I agree with their ‘shittos” or with their approach to yiddishkeit and their attitude to other Yidden. Indeed, I believe that some of their shittos are totally wrong, whether it has to do with Eretz Yisroel, or the imposition of a new concept of “emunas chachomim”, which never existed. See the comment by nameless about questioning the words of a godol bordering on heresy. This is so far off the reservation because it puts about 99.99% of the Yidden in the “heresy” camp. After all, there are always different views on every matter.Which of the two Satmarer camps is the “koifer”? Which of the various camps in yeshivas ponevez is the heretic one? You can see how this becomes totally preposterous,if applied to its ultimat absurdity..

IY”H, I will restrict my comments to debating the issue and not calling anyone

names. A start to Elul…

As far as the story of the coma….Did Rav Kanievsky SAY that there was a seventy year coma? Or DID he just say that the reason why the body was not decomposed was because of the reason quoted? After all of the dozens of postings on this, we still don’t know that. And, additonally, pray tell me, do I have to believe in Rav Kaniesky’s every word? In other words, are R’Chaim kanievsky’s words infallible? You have to tell me that because this is the crux of the issue throughout many of these postings. What indeed, are we obliged to believe. And, remember, whatever you will answer, you will also have to tell me why the words of Rav Kook ,for example, are less reliable that the Chazon Ish, or why the words of the Lubavticher Rebbe are less athoritative than Rav Shach’s.

Concerning jeshuos from zaddikim. Of course, when something unusual happens, you may consider it a ness. I do firmly beleive that EVERYTHING is min hashomaim, so, of course, anything that happens to someone , regardless of who interceded, can be qualified as a ness. What I have said consistently, is, that “nissim geluim” (like Kerias Yam Suf) only happened once in our history. From time to time, during the neviim, for example,there may have been individual nissim ,bu ,in general, it is the Jad hashem “benister” that guides us today.

IF the story of the 73-year coma would have been WITNESSED by someone reliable, then, you could say that this was indeed a nes by itself, albeit a nes shebenistar, because it is, after all, POSSIBLE to have a long coma.

The problem with this story is that is is just that, a story, and none actually confirmed this. Hence ,it remains a story and nothing more ( I will never call it a fiary tale again, out of respect)

There are hundreds of stories about Chassidishe rebbes and nissim. Pray tell me, do YOU believe in all of them? Or does your “emunah’ stop at R’Chaim kanievsky shelita?

I am not sure what your question about miracles is. Hakodesh Boruch does indeed mke miracles. My point was that, just because “nameless” believes it doesn’t mean that it must be.

I am assuming this won’t be posted because the last time I wrote this, it was not: IT IS TIME TO SHUT DOWN THIS ABOMINABLE COFFEE ROOM. There is nothing wrong with healthy civil debate but what occurs on this website borders on rishus. The namecalling and vitriol is unbecoming a website that purports to be Yeshivish!

”But something else occured to me last night. ‘

I see this issue is really sitting on your mind sir. For someone who deems this a fairy tale, I must say you are quite occupied with it; Do you obsess with ‘Sleeping Beuty and Cindarella as well?

The girl was fine till she was 17 years old and had ^plenty of oppertunity to envy

others.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

Oh no no no my friend. The decades long coma was central to this bubba maise. The clear message was that in light of her coma, she never experienced envy and therefore her body did not decompose after death. (BTW how did R. Kanievsky know this girl was never envious?) Don’t change the facts simply becuase they might now work against you.

“So, if someone doesn’t believe that a girl sat in a coma for 73 years that makes her a kofer? Gee, I wasn’t aware that that was one of the ikkarei emunah.”

No, you’re a koifer because of all the rotten things you write on your blog. You belittle the chachamim, you mock the torah and you pretend that you’re an erliche yid when, in reality, Sam Berger, you are a menuval and a koifer. The fact that you don’t believe the story when it told over by a reliable source is just confirms your kefirah.

To Rabbi of Berlin,

I must say that I take my hat off to you for admitting AND apologizing for your negative words on this blog. KOL HAKAVOD TO YOU. That shows a sign of greatness (in my opinion), and it’s something we should ALL learn from. I have a newfound respect for you. I for one am moichel you for having insulted me (my way of life) but I only speak for myself.

To be perfectly honest, though the two quotes I posted were comments made by you, the term “Sonei Yisroel” I did not see on the site, (I did not go back and read all your comments, just those two.) Rather, if you are the person i think you are, and you sure sound like it, it is a term I heard from your own mouth recently, along with “elitist”. If you do not live in mOnsey then I have the wrong person and I apologize for being Choshed biksherim. But that’s where that came from.

Now I would like to comment on the rest of your post:

You claim that emunas chachamim is a new consept , you imply -invented by the litvish people. I am not a talmid chacham, but I can think of one early commentator (pre-Lita) who wrote that when we look to our chachamim and listen to their words it is like someone in a garden maze looking to the guy in the middle for direction. The man in the middle has already completed the maze and from his high vantage point can see where you’re lost and can direct you. (see intro to mesilas yesharim, I may not have repeated it accurately, but its to the best of my recollection. The Ramchal is certainly great enough and enough accepted, I’m sure evn by you. Perhaps other people can bring other proofs.

However, I am surprised at you, Rabbi of Berlin, Chassid at heart: The concept of Emunas Chachamim is very strong by chassidim, perhaps even stronger than by Litvaks. By chassidim the idea of following the Rebbes directive blindly is part and parcel of almost every story.

Second,I agree it was out of line to call you a Koifer (though I suspect she was not the first one), and I agree that insulting someone is just an insult and never okay, but she didnt call you that because you don’t believe this story. Rather it was a general disbelief of many beliefs that form classic Jewish thought that get bandied about on this blog, which you and others have mocked.

By bringing in the split in Satmar and other camps, you display ignorance about the concept of emunas Chachamim. A chacham is a Gadol of Klal Yisroel who guide us in every area in life. When he exhorts us to do Teshuva in a certain area, we trust he is a messenger from Hashem, as cose as we can get to Nevua today, which is not existant today. Also, we can apply kenei l’cha Rav, where we ask Daas Torah from a wise and Knowledgeable Torah Scholar to direct us, and then we follow his advise, even though it sometimes doent make 100% sense to us. Chassidic tales (fairy tales too?)are replete with cases in which the Rebbe said or did something incomprehensible, but the one who trusted gained in the end.

you write, ” And, additonally, pray tell me, do I have to believe in Rav Kaniesky’s every word? In other words, are R’Chaim kanievsky’s words infallible?”

No, you don’t have to. Hopefully, you have your own Tzaddik that you follow. However, those that hold Rav Kanieveski to be the gadol Hador do believe every word he says. Yes, he is fallable, but his “fallacies” would be my mitzvos. As Chazal say, “Yiftach bedoro keShmuel bedoro”

The words of Rav Kook are to the Mizrachim as the words of the Lubavitcher Rebbe are to the Lubavitchers as the words of the Satmar rebbe are to the satmars. No Layman should put down a spiritual leader in front of ones followers, ever. If a Gadol says that the shita of the other “Rebbe” is wrong, I can not fully understand that, but I trust it is Lesheim shamayim. all of the Besh”t’s talmidim who eventually became Rebbes had different tracks in avodas hashem which conflicted with the other.

I agree wholeheartedly that open nissim do not generally happen today. everything is cloaked in teva. But cannot this story be explained by Teva too? It is not SO unusual to find weird quirks of nature. Several years ago I heard on the (secular) radio about a woman somewhere in England I think who had a baby aborted. She felt unwell and the doctors discovered a dead fetus. The fetus was in her womb for 35 years. The lady was over 70 years old. weird. Do I believe it? I dont know. But there are enough weird happeneings in the GUNISS BOOK to prove it.

I will respond to the rest of your post soon cuz i have to go now.

to amued reader page..4 very easy way to shut down this coffee room l’gabay your problem, just dont log on to it and ‘puff’ the problem is solved…oi, mir wish we can solve our problems so simply…

i dont think i’ve ever seen a “conversation” which is so off topic being discussed, if u want to, believe it, if not not but y am i interested its ur life, and its ur business, the original topic was about being able to fargin which obviously (i totally agree with tzippi on this) is something that needs to be worked on, the topic was a good one and i might add a much better one and more important than the so called “issue” being discussed here.

P.S. i’m wondering if a topic should be started about how people can comment about night when the issue is day…

Think big writes:

Cantoresq:

I don’t know why I’m bothering to rubut your post (certainly not because i think I will succeed in changing your point of view, because i doubt anything anybody here says will be heard by you.) But maybe in case someone else on this public forum will be infected by your words, I will give a my point of view to consider.

You ask why she deserved the fate she did if she never fargined anyone? As Nameless said, We are not G-d and we have no way of knowing his cheshbonos.

I RESPOND:

Indeed we are not G-d and cannot fully understand His ways. But I’m sure if anyone ever asked him, R. Chaim Kanievsky would say the same about himself. Since we can’t presume to know G-d’s ways, I am against stories such as the one under discussion. They reduce the level of contemplation of the Divine to child’s play. Such drivel may have a pedagogic value when teaching seven and eight year olds, but they have no place in adult religious introspection.

This Big continues:

She may have been a very high soul who came into this world for a specific purpose and this was the way to fulfill it.

I Responde:

But we have no way of knowing that do we?

TB CONT.

As to your question of why her body did not decompose for not being jealous if she anyways could not feel jealousy, so why was she rewarded for it?: I think that is an excellent and intelligent question.

Again, as I said on the smoking blog, Yiddishkeit is not averse to questions, as long as they come from a sincere place and not from a knocking one. I don’t pretend to know the answer, and I can’t even say I believe the story without a doubt (Jews by nature are more sceptical than gullible) as unfortunately many stories make their rounds which turn out to be false or misconstrued. (But I still appreciate the message, regardless whether the story was true)

However, I’d like to propose an answer to your question, just for the sake of learning. We have a precedent in the torah for Hashem rewarding someone for something even if they were not in the position to do otherwise.

When Yaakov Avinu met up with his brother Eisav Harasha after many years, it says that all the shevatim bowed down to Eisav. Many years later, The first king of Yisroel was Shaul, who descended from Binyamin. The question is asked: why specifically from Binyamin ?(Yehuda was not going to receive it at first because the Hashem was not happy with how the request for king was made…See Shmuel Perek 10) One of the answers given is that since all the other shevatim bowed down to the rasha Eisav, except for Binyamin. Why not? BECAUSE HE WAS NOT YET BORN. Here we have another case where Hashem rewarded someone for something even though he was not in a position to do otherwise. How can we mortals try to Fathom Hashem’s Mind?

I Respond:

Forgive me, but it’s one thing when chazal make that point, and quite another when a rebbetzin does so. But your answer does address an interesting theololgical difficulty; the flip side of theodicy, [seemingly] capricious Divine grace.

It is too bad that we do not know who cared for this lady for 70 years. The Golubcheks would have transferred their father, instead of keeping in a hospital where all the doctors wanted to kill him. It is amazing that they had technology to keep her alive so many years ago. Please publicize the facts to help future patients.

It is a known fact that R’ Chayim is frequently misquoted. However, he answers his ‘snail’ mail. So write and ask him if he ever heard such a story. He definitely did not read it on line…. It is not apikorsus to believe that gedolim are often misquoted. It may be apikorsus to believe everything that is said in their name.

Sorry Rabbi of Berlin, I don’t live in Lakewood. perhaps you are remembering a different conversation. Or you think i’m someone else because there were several people in the room when the conversation took place. But yes, a kleina velt. your “Rabbi of Berlin ” gives you away though.

“mosherose, Is Wolfish Mr. Berger?”

Yes. Sam Berger is the author of WolfishMusings.

think big, Thanks for your observation.I only said that statement once in my life and, indeed, there were a few other people present. Will hill, do you live in monsey? it s a big place….though….

Rabbi of berlin, you didnt answer, are you moichel me?

rabbi: I used to live there. You still live there?

Think BIG,: I notice you quoted rabbiofberlin from comments he made months ago on this site. You googled them or how did you find all those juicy tidbits?

to think BIG…no need for mechillah, and if you want it, mochul lecho, mochul lecho,mochul lechu. This is an anonymous website and it is a fluke that you realized who I am. Nothing wrong in that, as I am pretty open about my shittos on Eretz ysroel, (less)chumros, emunas chachomim in modern times, so no need for hiding. Actually, I truly must thank YOU for bringing up the matter of name-calling. As I said in an earlier post, I truly am beating myself up for the term “sonei yisroel”. THis is and will always be an impardonable offense. EVERY good Yid is an oihev yisroel. Satmar – to whose philosophy I do not suscribe- has the most wonderful bikur cholim in the world. I have heard from many non-frum people how this has impressed them and helped them. Chabad- whom I like but is under attack by others- does unbelievable things throughout the world. The hesder yeshivos in Eretz Yisroel – regardless whether you suscirbe to zionism or not – have been at the forefront of defending Klal Yisroel with their bodies and sometimes- sadly- with their lifes.

So, I accept everyone, from so-called far-right to moderate left. The only people I will reject are the ones who are “noisen jad’ to our enemies, whether from the right (thank G-d, few) to the left, people who will bend over to accomodate our enemies. Everyone else, I welcome with open arms.Incidentally, that approach I have learned from such disparate people as my chassidische rebbe, who welcomes everyone to our shul, to the great R’Shlomo Carlebach, who was the oihev ysroel par excellence, if sometimes to excess, to the legendary Rav Grossman of Migdal Haemek, a true zaddik in our time. And, ultimately, this is our dor’s duty- to open our hearts to all. The great baal teshuvah movement in recent times is fully based on that concept and, boruch hashem, I think we are winning.

rabbiofberlin,

What kind of Rabbi are you? Pulpit? Or did you just use the title as a nice screen name??

Also, r u from the TIDE school of thought (as in kaj)? Is that what the Berlin (i.e. Yekkish) signifies?

ujm, in brief, I am not from the TIDE school of thought ( I have no idea what TIDE means)and neither am I a member, old or new, of Kehillat Jeshurun. My own view on things is rather eclectic,chassidisch yet pro-zionist, yeshivish yet opposed to universal kollel, deeply understanding of mesoirah yet an ardent lover of Shlomo Carlebach…you see the picture…I did have a pulpit in Berlin some years ago. Hope this satisfies your curiosity.

Think Big, you make me blush, but thank you. My sons are truly metzuyonim and, regardless of my views, I am absolutely their proudest father.(My oldest is in Mir for six years now and, if G-d wills it, a future moreh beyisroel-but don’t tell him that!)

Incidentally, they both wear “gartlech” in honor of my father who gave it to them.My father, alov hashalom, was a big chossid and gave them these gartlech.