Still Fuming At Rabbi Belsky And Mishpacha

rabbiofberlin, you made the initial contention that German Jewry survived in greater numbers. So I ask of you to please provide any source for that. “As far as I know” doesn’t cut it. The Jewish citizens of Germany who left Germany prior to ’39 mostly went to neighboring European countries, and were affected by the subsequent German invasion of those areas. In fact, according to (Jewish) holocaust historian Lucy Dawidowicz in “The War Against the Jews” (Bantam, 1986), 90% of German and Austrian Jewry were murdered by the Nazis ym’s.

cantoresq, BTW the larger problem with Wise was his sabotaging the European Jewry rescue efforts, i.e. his opposition to the Rabbonim’s march in Washington (amongst other examples.)

Did Brand defend Kastner? I recall Brand was bitter about the sabotaging of the rescue efforts by his fellow zionists.

MDlevine, having reread the original letter now, the letter writer expresses the greatest possible derech eretz to Rav Belsky. All he does is defend chabad which is the chinuch and hadracha he received from his own Godol, the Rebbe ZT”L. What in the world is wrong with what he wrote? Halevai others who disagree with some position on any other matter would write with such derech eretz and respect as the shliach did. He had every right to do so. What is the hava amina that his own rebbe was less of a godol than Rav Belsky?

Mdlevine…..Your long posting made sense…till the last paragraph!! Pashute Yid has already skewered your argument pretty well but allow me to add another twist…WHY can’t I question a godol on his opinions?? Remember, this is not a Psak halocho that you ask for and should accept. These are OPINIONS ON GENERAL MATTERS!! (including Rav Belsky’s opinion on Chabad). I have argued till I am blue in the face that it is fully legitimate to question a godol’s OPINIOn on genral matters! My continuing back and forth with joseph has been on that detail….I do not believe that “emunas chachomim” has anything to do with matters of general interest and that “daas torah”, with its intimation of no dissent, is a modern invention.

Allow me to quote a gemoro (in berochos) that said that when Dovid Hamelech wanted to go to war , he consulted the Sanhedrin, then his advisers and lastly ,teh Urim Vetumim.

If emunas chachomim and daas torah are so infallible, why didn’t he just ask the sanhedrin and nothing else1 After all, they were the last word on everything, according to you, and their word could not be questioned. The answer is that their opinion was not the last word, juts an opinion.

I fail to see why this has changed. You may call me an “apikoros” for not believeng in “daas torah” as you call it, but I have never seen any legitimate basis for leaving my own intelligence at the door when talking to a godol.

MdLevine, I reread the article, and found the phrases you mention which were indeed a bit stronger than I remembered the tone to be, but still totally disagree with you. Rav Belsky initiated an attack on Chabad saying they deify the Rebbe. A representative of Chabad with kids in their schools responds by saying that he has never encountered such a thing in any Chabad institution. If that is true, he has every right to say that it is sheker, and by implication, motzee shem ra. I am totally confused why you think a person has no right to defend himself or his movement against an accusation that he believes is totally false. Especially, since the movement was headed by someone who was at least as big a godol as Rav Belsky.

If Rav Belsky accused you of stealing a thousand dollars from your shul, I guarantee you would use the same words in your defense. “I never did such a thing, the evidence is totally false, whoever told you that is being motzee shem ra on me, etc. etc. etc.” And you would have every right to do so.

I can see your point about what is the proper venue for his complaint, but Rav Belsky made a public accusation, and therefore the writer felt a need for a public defense. Why he chose YW instead of the original publication I don’t know, and possibly he should have and maybe did try to contact Rav Belsky directly. Nevertheless, a public accusation certainly invites a public defense.

joseph…I checked some statistics on the Holocaust. It comes from Wikipedia but it is buttressed by many studies. It says that in Poland, 90% of the jews were killed ( I knew that too). In Germany, many emigatred before the war and, although most moved to Czhecoslovakia and Holland and France, a quarter of the pre-war jews in germany and Austria survived. The ones who moved to the above named countries did go to their death in the same proportion as the others. In Hungary, over 50% were killed.

One sentence we can both agree upon” “Hashem jenokem domom”

BERLIN:

Re: woman cannot learn Gemorah, please see Maseches Sotah Daf 21b on top, and Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah siman 246 sif 6.

And some final discussions that I found on this issue in response to BERLIN who (on page 5 of this thread) flatly stated:

“Matisjohus words are the worst and the most ignorant. One example- he flatly denies the right to women/girls to learn gemoro. OK, can you give the mekor for this????”

AND

“You issue declarations that you cannot suport, like saying (Matisjohu) “a woman/girl is not allowed to learn gemoro”. OK= PROVE IT! show me the source for that (false) assumption.”

There is a dispute in the Mishna Sotah 20a whether one is even allowed to teach Torah to women at all. The argument against the teaching of Torah to women states that if one does so, it is like teaching them Tiflut. Rashi comments that Tiflut means lechery, meaning the study of Torah will lead women to immoral sexual acts. Rashi then cites the famous story of Bruriah, one of the greatest female scholars in Jewish history to prove his point. One day, Bruriah ridiculed the Gemara (in Kidushin 80b) which states that that women are lightheaded. Rabbi Meir, her husband, ordered his student to test Bruriah’s strength and try to seduce his wife. Bruriah caved in and when she realized what she had done, she hung herself.

Thus Rashi’s argument is that women’s minds are not meant for serious Torah learning. The Rambam agrees with Rashi’s take. Rambam also adds that when the chachamim had said, “He who teaches his daughter Torah, is as if he taught his daughter tiflut,”only applies to the oral law. The Rambam says that a man should not teach his daughters written law but if he does , it is not considered tiflut. The Shulchan Urach follows this approach of Rambam.

Women Learning Gemara – THE PROHIBITION:

The Mishnah (Sotah 20a) quotes R. Eliezer who states that one who teaches his daughter Torah is as if he had taught her tiflus (I’ll leave that untranslated and we can just assume that it is a bad thing). The Shulhan Aruch (Yoreh De’ah 246:6) quotes this law and states that this applies only to the Oral Torah but one should still not teach women the Written Torah either. However, the Rema points out that women need to learn the basic laws that they must fulfill and the Taz (ad loc., 4) argues that women are also allowed to learn the simple meaning of the Written Torah.

The conclusion is that there are four areas within this law:

1. Women may not learn the Oral Torah

2. Women may learn the simple meaning of the Written Torah

3. Women may not learn the Written Torah in depth

4. Women must learn the laws that apply to them

The poskim assume that included within “the laws that apply to them” is mussar that keep women them within the bounds of halachah. Even the Satmar Raebbe who as we shall see was very strict on these rules, permits women to learn mussar (Va-Yo’el Moshe, Ma’amar Lashon Ha-Kodesh ch. 33). He does not, however, permit women to study even Rashi on the Torah because it contains Oral Torah.

Note that the suggestion that this prohibition emanates from some sort of misogynist rabbinic bias or historical circumstance is insulting and bordering on heresy.

Much more can be found in the 3rd part of Vayoel Moshe – “Maamar

Loshon Hakodesh” – which is actually based on a teshuva that the SR z’l

wrote to Rav Pinchos Hirshprung zt’l of Montreal.

Okay BERLIN, there you have it. You said “OK, can you give the mekor for this????” I hope the Gemora itself, Shulchan Orach, the Gr”a, Child”a, Rambam, the Tur and other meforshim suffice for a mekor “for that false assumption.”

Now what have you BERLIN? (Some “YESHIVA UNIVERSITY source” that argues on the above Gemora, Shulcahn Orach, Rambam, etc? Please share the laugh with the rest of us who are not members of your FLAT-EARTH SOCIETY.)

rabbiofberlin: feel free, when responding, to respond to the smacl at YU!

Now what have you BERLIN? (Some “YESHIVA UNIVERSITY source” that argues on the above Gemora, Shulcahn Orach, Rambam, etc? Please share the laugh with the rest of us who are not members of your FLAT-EARTH SOCIETY.)

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Zalman when was the lest time you learned in RIETS, the Mazur Yeshiva program or any of the other learning tracks which comprise Torah learning at Yeshiva College? Allow me to make you aware of certain realities which may temper your smug condescending attitude toward Yeshiva University and those who learn(ed) there. You are no doubt aware that the school is populated by many young men who chose to forego sttending the finest universities in this country (i.e. Harvard, Yale, University of Pennsylvania etc. personally I gave up the chance to go to the University of Michigan, a fine school) in order to spend their undergraduate years in a Torah atmosphere, learning Torah on a daily basis. When I was a student there (and I know it to be the same today), my day began with Shacharit at 7;30, followed by a quick breakfast. I was in the Beit Midrash at 9:00 and learend morning seder until 12:30. Shiur was every day from 1:00 p.m. until 3:00 p.m. At 3:00 began the first college course, which for those of us in the Yeshiva program usually was a Bible class (yes indeed those apikorsim/amei ha’Aretz spend an hour a day actually studying the Chumash or other sifrei Tanach in depth far beyond anything done in any chareidi yeshiva). Classes generally ended at 7:00 p.m. and most of us had a night seder for between one to three hours a night. I and my colleagues and the students there now started our homework at 10:00. Rarely did I get to bed before midnight or 1:00 a.m. Might I remind you that many of those students who learn for between six and eight or nine hours a day also carry a full college courseload. Some of them are pre-med, pre-law, in the business school etc. Interestingly it is generally a boy in the highest shiur who is also the valedictorian or salutorian of his class. They are moser nefesh for limud haTorah in ways you and your ilk can never fathom. And they do so with the simchas hachayim that only limud Torah can bring to one’s soul. I daresay that even the outstanding bochurim in the chareidi yeshivot could not pull off that lifestyle with anything near the grace and elegance and actual accomplishment of his YU counterpart; if they could manage it at all. I defy you and your snide cohorts to ever do what I and they have done and continue to do. It’s easy to sneer and insult; especially when you no nothing about what it is you deride.