Bridging the Gap Between The Torah World and MO

The problem isn’t getting rabbi Shechter or rabbi willig to meet with the Torah world’s poskim; they have. My rebbe rav belsky worked with rabbi Shechter all the time. Because they’re coming from the same religion, and are both committed to normative halacha (except rabbi Shechters land for peace teshuva where he uses European nationalism to justify the loss of Jewish life)

The issue is the MO world to the left of those two rabbis. They are barreling down the roads of heresy and violation of halacha, and they have little in common with rabbonim from the torah world.

Not to be a nudnik, but there is a problem when the yeshivishe oilam thinks that they have a monopoly on the “Torah world”. Don’t confuse Torah, the basis of our faith, with being yeshivish; a mentality. Being yeshivish requires Torah; having Torah does not require being yeshivish.

Several such rabbinic boards exists. But they each address one area.

Akup – wow, yiddishkeit being reduced to 3 mitzvos and a piece pf fabric on your head really caught me by surprise.

Yes, MO generally keep those things, except a study in 2015 by an MO group found that not even 3/4 of MO people consistently wear tefilin, practice taharas mishpacha, and keep shabbos fully, nor do they believe fully that Hashem runs the world and that the Torah is 100% true.

But even without that study, you’re accusing the Torah world of also just keeping those things.

What about mitzvos like not touching women, including relatives? lo sasuru? Tznius? Bitul torah? Reading lashon hora and apikorsus? Checking for shatnez? Not taking jews to court? There are a ton of mitzvos that are practically hefker in large parts of MO

Aveirah, what was this 2015 study? Is it the one Joseph loves to quote? It was mentioned by a prominent MO Rav once, but he himself said he never read it, and just told the information by someone who said he had read it. The study itself was never linked to, and I question if it actually exists.
Regarding the things you mentioned, true, there are individuals who don’t keep these things. There are people in every group who don’t keep them – do you really believe that nobody who wears a black hat violates them? No MO Rav will say it’s ok, and to me, that’s where it matters most.

The term modern orthodox, yeshivish, chasidish, are just political terms. If they all belive in God and the Torah, then the titles are just political. There can be chasidim who could believe in the modern orthodox ideology and modern orthodox in the chasidic ideology. As i look at it, the only differentiation between ultra orthodox and modern orthodox is how to deal with modernity, erase it or embrace it, if halacha allows it. I know a lot of chasidim that are embracing modernity (technology etc.).

Edited

I agree that every Jew should identify with Torah Judaism regardless of their level of adherence to halacha; mitzvos are not all or nothing, but emunah is… Having twisted beliefs is a worse violation than many other sins, so in reality, a believing jew who struggles with his yatzer hora, or even if he’s given up on certain mitzvos, is still in a better place than a “farshita’d” person who keeps whatever they believe in and disregards the parts that they don’t accept ideologically.

It’s like two people who come to court for breaking the law. One is contrite and admits his guilt, asking for mercy and help not to reoffend. Another is a revolutionary who incites anarchy and will not admit that they did anything wrong and that the legal system just accommodate them

Who do you think will be punished more severely?

Dear Avirah,

Taking other Jews to court is a major problem by the yeshivshe and chassidishe yidden. I never knew it was an issue by the MO.

Aveirah, I looked up the study. It says straight out that they interviewed non-Orthodox people who attend Orthodox synagogues. It also says that only 41% of respondents classified as Modern Orthodox!
If you look at the splits between what they label as Modern Orthodox or Centrist/Right Orthodox, you’ll see the numbers are just fine. It’s Open Orthodox that has the problems… no surprise there.
You talk about the things it doesn’t ask about. I have children in schools now, and I can tell you that tznius is taught just fine. They are taught that ngiah is forbidden. The school has a dress code. The vast majority of students don’t have relationships with the opposite gender. So I don’t know where you get your ideas from.

Lakewhut: incorrect. In my shul, which is MO, there absolutely is a requirement that women must dress appropriately when coming to shul. The Rav will admit that the requirements are usually the halachic minimum, so that people aren’t driven away from davening, but they are there. We’ve had times where the Rebbetzin went over to someone to ask her to walk out until she changed, or covered up a bit. We’ve had divorced women who no longer wanted to cover their hair who were told that’s not allowed in the shul.
As for mechitzos, you miss the point of them. It’s not to block men from seeing women. It’s to differentiate the sections for men and women. R’ Moshe held it only needed to be 5 feet tall. It’s just to prevent mingling during davening.

Come on. Bitul Torah is a universal malady.

Loshon Hara and reading Apikorsus as well.

Just look at us posting here.

The gap between a “kippah srugah” and someone who doesn’t wear a kippah is greater than the gap between the “kippah srugah” and a “streimel”.

Isn’t this Pashut?

DaMoshe:

“The vast majority of students don’t have relationships with the opposite gender.”

The elementary/high school you send to is the minority of RWMO. The large majority of MO students go to LWMO schools, where the schools are co-ed and the large majority of students have cross-gender friendships and/or boy/girlfriends. Especially starting in high school and even more especially after graduating high school.

Additionally, in Yeshivish, Lakewood and Chasidish schools, having a boy/girlfriend is virtually non-existent.

“We’ve had times where the Rebbetzin went over to someone to ask her to walk out until she changed, or covered up a bit. We’ve had divorced women who no longer wanted to cover their hair who were told that’s not allowed in the shul.”

You see, even in your RWMO shul you have this problem. Forget about what goes on in LWMO shuls, which constitute the large majority of where self-identified MO people daven. (Assuming they even go to shul; MO rabbis have been widely reporting over the last few years that a very significant percentage of young MO adults no longer come to shul.)

In Yeshivish/Lakewood/Chasidish shuls, it is virtually unheard of that women need to be told to “cover up” or go home and change. Or for divorced women to have the audacity to come with their hair uncovered, for that matter.

“R’ Moshe held it only needed to be 5 feet tall.”

Wrong. Rav Moshe held, B’DIEVED, it must be at least 18 tefachim (66″). And Rav Moshe writes that the mechitza is D’Oraisa. Rav Moshe writes that one is obligated to protest with all his might against a mechitza which is less than 18 tefachim. It’s assur to daven there, even if you won’t otherwise be able to daven with any minyan.

“So far as I know, he was the last Rabbi to hold that distinction.”

Rav Belsky was respected by both worlds (he headed up OU kashrus I believe). Rav Ovadia Yosef was respected by both worlds. I think Rav Heinneman of the Star-K (still living) has maintained respect in both worlds, albeit not without some controversy. If people want respect in both worlds, the formula seems to be:
1) Be very frum/yeshivish in your own life.
2) Be willing to pasken very meikel and stick by your guns when you know it’s right.

Da, you’re looking at an appendix; the people they interviewed identified as mo, and the study took into account the factor of non MO davening in mo shuls. Among center and center left, the common dominator was less than full adherence to mitzvos as basic as wearing tefilin. The remarks were that they usually do it, but not always; that’s a quarter of MO people who don’t take Shabbos, kashrus and tefilin seriously, or believe fully in the 13 ikkarim

Not sure what this discussion accomplishes. We all have the mitzvah of vehavta rayecha camocha. Bzman haze it applies to all Jews regardless of affiliation.

Dear Avira,

I would venture that roughly a quarter of the YV is also not fastidious with tefillin, davening, or kashrus.

It really seems like you were never fully involved in a yeshivish community.

And how many Jews know all 13 Ikkarim in the first place?

The only difference is that MO is much more likely to be honest with their religious standing. Which is not intrinsically a bad thing.

“But none of them had the clout by either group that Rav Moshe had.”
OK, but Reb Moshe is the exception that proves the rule. Very rarely is a posek that universally accepted if ever.

“If Rav Moshe permitted something than that was good enough for both.”
That’s pretty much true with the names I mentioned as well with the exception of one notable controversy. Even the times when when people don’t hold by a heter from these sources (including Reb Moshe) it isn’t usually because they aren’t “good enough;” they just happen to pasken differently, which is a non-concept in the MO since they always just go like the most meikel bidder.

“As for schools, you’re wrong. Look at the Teaneck area”
Is he wrong? His point is that you live in a particularly right wing MO community, which I think Teaneck is. Try going to various OOT Young Israels and you’ll have a better understanding of why people have these perceptions of the MO. Contrary to what you might think, your community does not comprise the majority of the modern orthodoxy. Many of the MO communities in the NYC area (it sounds like including your’s) would be at least unofficially considered yeshivish in most other areas.

There are three different circumstances.

1. Established MO communities that are a part of major Jewish populations. This is being debated.

2. Isolated MO cities. The observance there is largely at the mercy of the abilities and circumstance of some rabbi many years ago.

3. Communities that are not established and only serve as a place for Jewish Adults to have a communal lifestyle. These communities are made up of whichever Jews decided to live there at the moment. They have little continuity. And less oversight. This is not part of the debate. It is Barely Orthodox. BO not MO. The young people there come from all over including Williamsburg and Lakewood.

@UJM: You do not find a significant population of former Yeshivish/Chasidish in MO schools or shuls.
There is a large coed school in Rockland whose parent body is 80% ex chasidish /yeshivish.
The is a similar school in the 5 towns.

If you actually understand the “Zionism” of the MO community you will probably realize it’s almost the same as Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer or Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank’s outlook.

Just look at the letters of recommendation for Rav Herzog (who was a very big Zionist, had a Phd from the University of Leeds, and was extremely well versed in Latin and Greek classics and philosophy). The “chareidi” part of Eretz Yisrael didn’t want him as the Chief Rabbi so they published a forged teshuva from Rav Chaim Ozer that he can’t become Chief Rabbi because he had a Phd. Rav Chaim Ozer himself responded and said that Rav Herzog was a big gaon and should become Chief Rabbi. In addition, the Rogatchover said about him “a star is shining from England, and Yitzchak Isaac Haleivi is his name”, the Ridbaz referred to him as “Rav Akiva Eiger of this generation” and he also received very strong recommendations from Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer, the Chazon Ish, the Ohr Sameach, Rav Tuccachinsky, and other gedolim.

“Teaneck is a large isolated MO city the debate applies here to.”
No it’s not. It’s a commuter town for NYC. Not isolated at all.

Dan… you’re totally misinformed. The only notable people in the agudah who voted to support a state run by halacha were the sadigerer and Boyaner rebbes, and maybe another, but honestly they weren’t on the same level as rav aharon and rav elchanan…they just weren’t. Not every prominent person is the same. Rav elchanan was the same as rav shimon, rav chaim ozer, rav boruch ber…all the litvishe roshei yeshiva and gedolim felt the same way about zionism, and rav chaim said it’s avodah zara, as did all of the others.

People quote a lot from rav isser zalman without ever providing a source; it’s a fairy tale, but even according to their reports, he felt that the state was a hatzolah, much like tue ponevezher rov – that isn’t nationalism or avodah zara. Nationalism, which MO is soaked in, is the idea that the jews are a nation by virtue of something other than just the Torah, and is inclusive of Hashem’s enemies as valid parts of the jewish nation. It’s an import from European nationalism, straight avodah zara.

Also, the boys high school you mentioned has a few students newspapers; once a boy wrote about how the school was “homophobic,” and the school did nothing; does that belong in a yeshiva boys mind?

But it does seem like teaneck moved away from coed high schools, which is nice – they should continue to become closer to Judaism, imyh.