Grocery that gets rid of all Chometz before Pesach

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  • #2195853
    smiler613
    Participant

    Does anyone know of a grocery store in Lakewood that completely gets rid of all their Chometz before Pesach and does not rely on Mechiras Chometz?
    In most stores, they have Chometz from before Pesach which you can tell by the production date, so I end up having to throw out the Chometz purchased by accident and I would rather buy somewhere that does not carry Chmetz from before Pesach at all.
    Thank you

    #2196164

    looks like another chumra making people to throw away the food Hashem sent their way. Why not give it to some sheigetz in Lakewood that holds by mechiras chometz?

    #2196181
    tunaisafish
    Participant

    AAQ: some zheigitz in lakewood? Midos Alert

    #2196189
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Yes its call the troller supermarket

    #2196315
    takahmamash
    Participant

    You must mean that guy wearing the blue shirt.

    #2196344
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Rav Reisman points out that he doesn’t understand Jews who davka purchase from goyim post pesach
    Buying in a Jewish store ie Supporting a Jew is a d’oraysah
    Not selling chametz is a chumra
    The chumra doesn’t override a d’oraysah
    It is one of many misplaced priorities

    #2196349
    simcha613
    Participant

    I find it hard to believe that there would be a grocery store that can afford to do that. Relying on mechras chameitz as an individual is certainly controversial… but a store using it is less problematic because I think that’s what the original institutions was for (I think it was for whiskey sellers) because the loss of destroying all that chameitz would have been overwhelming.

    #2196355
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    smiler

    It is hard to imagine how such a store could exist .
    Please do teshuva for throwing out perfectly fine food purchased from ehrliche people who follow halacha

    #2196732
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “Yes its call the troller supermarket“

    One way to spot a troll is if they haven’t posted anything from n the CR since they opened their account (3 years and 11 months ago) and they start by posting a new thread that could be inflammatory

    #2197063
    Thoughtful Response
    Participant

    This appears to me to be a chumra born in the Lakewood mentality. Move outside the east coast and everyone buys from the same handful of stores that supply the entire community…and they all sell their chometz.

    Not to judge, as to each his own. I just wonder how the Rabbonim of 100, or even 50 years ago would view the “chumra” culture of today. Many Rabbonim have been outspoken about the added chumras which add stress and anxiety to an already overwhelming modern society.

    #2197137
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Those calling not selling chometz a chumra… You do realize that it’s not in the gemara, and was introduced relatively recently, to be able to sell it… The Gaon was very, very against it. Why is not relying on the kulah now a chumra?

    #2197367
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Avira,

    Because the logistics have completely changed. Even if such a store is found, who are the suppliers?

    #2197545
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Avira

    Because this isnt about not relying on the sale
    This is not allowing others to rely on it.

    Rabbi Reisman is very very very* opposed to this “Chumra”

    buying from a yid is a mitzva deoraysa.
    chamatz shevar al Hapesach is a knas derabanan. It is absurd (his words) to suggest that Chazal would issue a knas agasint this fellow who follows all Gedolim who allow mechira. He goes to his Rav sells his chometz and surprise chazal issue a knas???

    Aye the Gra?
    Ok so if you are very medakdek on following the Gra, maybe it makes sense. but if not to adopt this chumra is “absurd”
    As to why the Gra held it. Who knows
    1) not all things in Maaseh Rav are reliable.
    2) Maybe he thought the mechira wasnt done well in his locale
    3) Practicly it wasnt the same people didnt have storehouses with product as much as today.
    4) furthermore might be better off buying from yid today. You know he sold his product, it is deffinitly NOT chometz sheavar al Hapesach when buying from goy you don’t know who he bought from over yom Tov could be a Jewish distributor

    *I use all those verys because I heard it from him many times and he used strong language. Do you have a source that the Gra was “very very against it” Maaseh Rav says he didnt buy

    #2197578
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The chamets sold before Pesach should be batel in the chametz bought after Pesach.

    #2197587
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Eat only potatoes year-round and avoid the machlokes.

    #2197670
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Avirah
    I am curious where you got that “not in the gemarah” part
    Mishna peschim 2:1
    Yerushalmi perek 2
    and then there is the famous tosefta

    #2197677
    yuda the maccabi
    Participant

    Avira
    selling chometz is not something new, its brought down in the shulchan aruch siman 448
    the source is a tosefta and therefore chazal
    and the biur hagra there does not write anything against selling it
    the mishna brurah does not write against selling chometz
    and therefore it is a chumra and its a chumra against chazal
    if a person wants to be machmir not to sell thats one thing but after it was sold the halacha is its allowed (supposing the sale was done correctly)

    please see the aruch hashulchan y”d siman 116 were he says that someone who is machmir in a place that the poiskim were meikel could be considered minus (theres also a maharshal brought down in hilchos busur vichuluv that says the same)

    this is all except for the issur of baal tashchis for throwing out food that is halachically permitted
    – at least donate it to the less fortunate

    #2197761
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    My apologies, i should have been clearer – selling is definitely with a precedent. The issue the Gaon had was with selling it while it remains in the jews house/store.

    #2197762
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “The chamets sold before Pesach should be batel in the chametz bought after Pesach.“

    כל קבוע כמחצה על מחצה דמי

    😂😂😂😂

    #2197796
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Avira

    “The issue the Gaon had was with selling it while it remains in the jews house/store.”

    I’m not sure how you know that. As Far as I know the Gra did not write anywhere opposing the sale, including in his comments to Shulchan Aruch (448:3) where sale is mentioned.
    Masseh Rav does mention that he avoided buying from Chometz that had been sold, thoughg it does not say why.

    Do you have a source indicating that he was “very, very against it.”?

    (To be clear I’m not saying he wasnt agaisnt it, (though “very very” seems like a stretch) I am saying that just becasue he was agasint it does not mean this is something that people should follow today for all the reasons I shared from Rabbi Reisman in previous post)

    #2197803
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Ubiq,, I’ll look it up when i get a chance; i remember learning it when we learned the sugya years ago

    #2197856
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Just curious. Do those who hold with the Gra’s position on selling chametz also hold with his position that there is nothing wrong with eating gebrochts on Pesach?

    #2197888
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    There is no bittul b’rov here for every possible reason.

    #2197918
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Why is anyone taking this troll seriously?

    #2197976
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    I don’t know why my post with the sources is not being posted…i found the Gaon, and others

    #2198233
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Pity
    I would have like to see the Gra.
    Only reference I’m familiar with is Maaseh Rav

    #2198607
    smiler613
    Participant

    I think it could be worth it for a store to get customers by giving them what they want. Many people buy from Goyim only because they can’t find a Jewish store that is willing to supply them with what they want. Attempting to sell someone something that they do not want is sinnas chanam as well as bad from a business perspective. You can’t refuse to supply the products that your customer wants and then complain when he takes his business elsewhere.
    מי שנוהג באיזה דבר איסור מכח שסובר שדינא הוא הכי או מכח חומרא שהחמיר על עצמו מותר לאכול עם אחרים שנוהגין בו היתר דודאי לא יאכילוהו דבר שהוא נוהג בו איסור (rama yore deah 119)
    אע”פ שנחלקו בית שמאי ובית הלל מודעי להו ופרשי דאהבה וריעות נוהגים זה (Yevamos 14B)
    It doesn’t make a difference if the chumra is right or wrong, a consumer should be allowed to only purchase and eat what they want.

    #2198625
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @smiler613, i think it would be worth it for a troll to get a life

    #2198647
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Smiler
    You should be that person
    Don’t be one of those guys on the sidelines who tells everyone else what they are doing wrong
    Get proactive. Start that big Lakewood grocery that caters to your crowd. I am sure you will make a fortune!

    #2198687
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    This is a derabonon so I don’t know if the rule of being half on fixed bitul applies.

    #2198692
    smiler613
    Participant

    I will just buy from Walmart. They are also cheaper on basics like flour, noodles, etc.

    I just would rather give a yid parnassah but only if he gives me the products that I want.

    It looks like no one knows of such a store, so I’ll get it from Walmart.

    It’s that simple – if you sell to a Goy before Pesach, I’ll buy from a Goy after Pesach.

    #2198719

    > I just would rather give a yid parnassah but only if he gives me the products that I want.

    “I want” seems like such a goyishe attitude, you should probably go to walmart lehathila!

    Posters here raised good objections that this chumra is a kula towards the Jewish sellers, so you should probably ask a Rav …

    In defense of the poster though – if you are in a place where a Jewish grocer raises prices thanks to the monopoly in the Jewish commuity, you might be justified going to walmart not only because it is 20% cheaper for you, but in order to break the excessive pricing for the whole community.

    #2198740
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    AAQ, “so you should probably ask a Rav …”
    You don’t believe in that.

    #2198786
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Reb Eliezer,

    I could give you ten solid reasons why bitul doesn’t apply.

    But one will suffice to eradicate every possible retort.

    If the chometz would have been properly sold before pesach there would be no issur. We don’t ever use bitul after we intentionally created an issur. דבר שיש לו מתירים

    #2198787
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Always,

    “Monopoly”

    🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

    You don’t understand retail at all!

    #2198788
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Smiler,

    Gives you the products that you want?!?

    Go be a butcher and let’s see if you keep selling only kosher.

    #2198837
    mentsch1
    Participant

    AAQ
    Rav Reisman has discussed that issue also
    I do not remember his cheshban and the actual percentage #
    But certainly if there are significant differences in prices there is no issue
    About 10 years ago I bought pesach plastics that cover my counter tops. I have a small kitchen and a Yiddish company wanted $1200 to make the plastics. I had a goyish company make them for less than $200.
    I didn’t lose any sleep over that one

    #2198852
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Most supermarkets operate on a very thin profit margin. If a shomer shabbos grocery can afford to throw away everything in his store, he has to be marking up the wholesale prices considerably.

    #2198874
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Nom

    Of the ten possible reasons bitul wouldnt apply you gave an incorrect one

    chametz shevar al Hapesach is NOT a davar sheyesh lo matirin. IT will never become mutar. In fact if you mixed up (after purchasing so no longer kavua) chometz shevar al hapesch it WOULD be batul (if not davar shebeminyan, chatichha arui lhiskabed etc)

    Davar sheyesh lo matirin doesnt apply if the matir is retroactive. We dont say neveila is davar sheyesh lo matirin becasue you could have shechted it.

    #2198944

    common > AAQ, “so you should probably ask a Rav …”
    You don’t believe in that.

    Stop trolling me. I explained already – I do not believe in Daas Torah. Why? Because I asked the Rav and he said so.

    #2198943
    smiler613
    Participant

    He meant אין מבטלין איסור לכתחילה
    see יורה דעה סימן פ”ט סעיף ה וסעיף ו

    #2198947

    n0> You don’t understand retail at all!

    yes, I am not in retail, B’H. you are right about competitiveness. But there are still pockets of monopolies – selling in poor neighborhoods where people do not drive to Costcos, government contracting … kosher stores in small towns used to be such, dented by Costcos and other stores now selling many kosher products and online shopping, but still they have their captured audience of older or uninformed customers who sometimes pay over the roof.

    #2198948

    Interesting dichotomy: when we discuss the Pesach aspect of it, there are learnt references. When we discuss l’havero aspect – everyone is wandering in the dark.

    #2198950

    common, the real reason I am suggesting to go ask a Rav is Rambam in halochos deos that says when a person is unhealthy he needs to go to the doctor, when he has problems with deos, he needs to go to a chacham. That is what I I think I meant, not simply get a psak on a particular question.

    #2198951
    smiler613
    Participant

    When “I want” is for Gashmius reasons, then it’s a goyishe attitude, but when the “I want” is to keep the Halacha better, that’s a Yiddish attitude.

    It’s interesting when people try to bash chumras by suddenly remembering a mitzva to buy from Jews, and when they have a “Gashmiyus chumra” like wanting better quality or better prices then it’s suddenly fine and they themselves get most of their purchases from goyim online or in-store.

    I personally try to buy from Yidden even when the quality and price are worse, but if they refuse to supply the Chumras that I want, that’s when I stop feeling obligated to patronize them. It’s the same for everyone, we all have the same attitude toward Jewish shops – You help me and I’ll help you. To me “helping me” means supplying the Kashrus standards that I want. I don’t care so much about the quality and price. Some people are willing to settle for minimum Kashrus standards while needing maximum quality and minimum price.

    #2198964
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ, so do as I say not do as I do?

    #2198971
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    smiler

    You mean 99
    Though I’m still not sure the relevance. That wouldn’t allow you to buy the chometz intending to mix it and create bitul

    #2198988
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Smiler

    “I personally try to buy from Yidden even when the quality and price are worse, but if they refuse to supply the Chumras that I want, that’s when I stop feeling obligated to patronize them”

    I don’t get this
    So you’re a meikel stam to make yourself feel good. Isn’t that worse than a meikel who is driven by yetzer harah for money?

    #2198995
    smiler613
    Participant

    @ubiquitin

    Correct 99

    If the shop intends to mix it so that “machmirim” shouldn’t know what’s what and by doing that, they want the “machmirim” to consider it בטל, then it shouldn’t be בטל.

    You could “kler” if it’s done intentionally or not, but there is a possibility that they are aware of the problems and are intentionally trying to create a heter (or intentionally trying to circumvent the Knas/boycot that the Chachamim made to deter them from avoiding proper biur chometz and obviously the Chachamim would not allow such easy loopholes מה הועילו חכמים בתקנתם)

    #2199001
    smiler613
    Participant

    ubiquitin

    2 points:
    #1 I don’t think it’s being meikel, just like there is a mitzva to buy from a Yid, it’s a Mitzva to sell to a Yid and not to cheat a Yid etc. The Mitzva to buy from a Yid doesn’t mean that he can force you to buy what you don’t want. Just like you can’t force him to sell you something that he doesn’t want to or for a lower price than he is willing to do. If he is not supplying an important aspect that you require, you don’t need to buy from him. The way business is meant to work is that you give me what I want and I give you what you want.
    #2 This isn’t to make myself feel good, this is important to me. Just like for someone else that taste and quality or price are very important to them. For someone who needs Wise brand onion rings because to him (or his kids) Leibers onion rings don’t taste as good or are too expensive, I can say that he is buying a Goyish company over a Jewish one just to make himself feel good. but that would be disrespecting his needs and feelings because to him it is not an option to buy the Leibers onion rings because the slight difference in taste or the few cents in price is very important to him. To others, the taste or cost is much less significant than the improved Kashrus.

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