More than One Type of Toeiva

1. Those who engage in unethical and illegal business practices have a feeling of shame and do everything they can to conceal such activities.

2. The LGBTQ community not only lacks of sense of shame, and is open about their activities, but actively tries to convert others to their lifestyle, and resorts to coercion to gain recruits and punish those who oppose them.

rhetorical question?

My rebbi said to make zahav tahor, pure gold. Everyone judges accoding to what they see.

Keep in mind that the first toeiva is a capital crime where the perpetrator is put to death, whereas the second toeiva the perpetrator has to pay a monetary fine to his victim.

A few points on this:
When the Torah uses the word Toevah in reference to the lifestyle, it only refers to men. Women have a separate issur. The main difference is that for women I don’t believe there is a death penalty, and it’s definitely not yehareg v’al yaavor.

Aveirah says that being mechalel Shabbos doesn’t go against the essence of a person. True, because Shabbos isn’t something that relates to a person. But it does relate to creation. We say in Friday night’s davening that Shabbos is the tachlis of creation. The entire creation relies on Shabbos – I’d say that violating it would go against the normal fabric of things, just as homosexuality does.

The world was built on truth. I’m sure we all know it says that Emes is the foundation. Cheating in business is the opposite of that. Again, it’s something that goes against the very essence of the world and creation.

There’s a lot to talk about here . Just one point.
When someone gives a lot if Tzedoka and is honored for it, his identity as a Baal Tzedoka is being honored. That’s the paradigm . If he has a personal shortcoming in another area it’s not relevant . If he is widely known to be openly unethical etc this wouldn’t apply, but mosdos usually avoid that.
When someone IDENTIFIES with their Toeiva identity , that’s a different story entirely. They identify as a poster-child to make a statement to promulgate an Aveira.

Because we live in the era before Moshiach where we are all confused. We live in a community where politics, power and money are highly valued. As such, we are heavily influenced by the political narrative, even when it isn’t the same as the Torah narrative.

For example, al pi Torah we should celebrate the tsadikim who have SSA and choose to remain celebate their entire lives. I have heard this statement from major rabbanim. But so many shul and community rabbanim will have no problem standing up at a kiddush and going off on the LGBT community, with no regard for those who are in the closet and shomrei Torah.

We need to double and triple down on our sensitivity towards Torah values. Stop listening to political shows and focus on limud Torah and ahavas chinam.

We believe in teshuva. For everyone. Even those who commit financial crimes.

jdb, where did you hear such things from? That we should celebrate “tzaddikim” who remain celibate their whole lives? What about the mitzvah of Pru u’rvu? The fact that if you don’t have children for 10 years then you can divorce your wife?

And celebrate people on SSA? Seriously? I’d love to know which “major Rabbonim” you heard this from.

Dear Da,

Yes, a million percent. Not everyone can do everything. Some people can’t even spend ten hours straight over a Gemara!

Da, he’s actually correct. Rav aharon Feldman writes a lot of praise for people with unwanted SSA who live celibate lives devoted to the klal.

He says that they are patur from mitzvas pru urvu, as they are onsim; they cannot in their current state have a family, and if they try without developing at least some interest in women, it will be a disaster.

So yes, a man who does not submit to his urges and certainly does not identify with the open brazen sinners of the world, is a yzadik vekadosh.

Doom, maybe not at first, but Hashem intended all of us to be bnei Torah, even those with ADHD, etc..

When i first started learning, i was 17, and couldn’t handle more than like 30 minutes.

Imagine if someone(and there were) convinced me that I wasn’t cut out for learning, and i would have just gone to college(which these people always seem to have patience for…)

I would have been a hollow ignoramus

Akuperma, do they really? A certain financial criminal is not only unrepentant but is being lionized as a miracle worker. Many others who are not caught are proud of fooling the government. They think that they are really smart.

Avira, there are two types: one who only has SSA and another who also has a normal side. In fact, a certain religious Israeli singer announced that he has SSA but is married, has children and is completely loyal to his wife. Rav Shmuel Eliahu said that he should be given full shul honors. See Pirkei Avot 4,1.

My apologies for my last point – I misunderstood what SSA stood for. Once I realized, I fully agree with what was said.
I’ve been dealing with helping a relative apply for disability benefits, and I’ve seen SSA printed in letters way too much lately, referring to Social Security. I thought it meant someone living on government benefits, learning all day without working at all, relying on the government to support him, and not wanting a family so that it wouldn’t interfere with his learning.
Again, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Avira, as with everything else, a person must use the fifth section of the Shulchan Aruch. If the victim does not know about it (e.g. someone said lashon hara about him), forgot about it, or would be embarrassed by it being recalled, one should not talk about it. The idea is to fix the harm that was done to him.

No one is bothered by people who have SSA but never act upon that attraction, never advertise that attraction, never publicly discuss that attraction. The idea that anyone holds anything against anyone else who has SSA is a fig leaf, red herring and strawman.

The issue, and only issue, is those who any upon said attraction. Or parade it. Or try to normalize it.

Joseph, I agree that nobody SHOULD be bothered by it. Sadly, there are those out there who are, and mistreat people for it.
I heard one person say that he went to his Rosh Yeshiva and tell him he had these urges, and asked for help. The RY yelled at him and called him terrible names, then kicked him out of the yeshiva.
That is the kind of attitude that just drives these people completely off.

Avira > Imagine if someone(and there were) convinced me that I wasn’t cut out for learning, and i would have just gone to college

So, then by now, you will work for 10 hours a day and spent the rest of the day in learning. Your middos would be also better because you’d learn some manners, as when you are talking inappropriately in business, you tend to lose customers. I am puzzled how so many hours of learning did not have similar effect – up to now, at least. Maybe it is an indicator that a system of learning by hours of Gemoras not always affects the person, despite the promise of lo lishma not leading to lishma. Please note, this is not personal.

edited

Nom, so all the working amei haaretz have impeccable manners?

All the working people who attend nightly talmud readings are baalei middos?

Huh?

Dear Avira,

The Mishna first says Derech Eretz and then says Melacha. So maybe the poster means to say that anyone who has a career has no understanding on the world and projects all kind of weirdness onto learning guys.

Yeah, he probably meant something like that.

Avira > so all the working amei haaretz have impeccable manners?

I was pondering the same question. hillel in Avos 2:6 is pretty sure that bor is not yere het and am haaretz is not chasid, a shy person can not learn and an angry person can not teach (my kids had a question on the latter – so how do we call angry teachers!?), but then a strange expression (my translation) “_not everyone_ who increases in selling becomes wiser”. It does not say – “a businessman can not be wise”. So, this seems to be saying – as you do – that while it is reasonable to presume that engaging in business will make one smarter, it is not always, especially of you overdo it. Unless, Hillel is using this for irony to mock those who think that selling is beneficial, and it went over my head. As a reference, Alter from Novordok would teach his students chochma in addition to mussar – “someone who can not buy a wagon of wood without being swindled must be lacking in his ruchniyous also”, referring to Rivka and Eliezer’s camels.

I also did not mean this as a general statement, but specifically for your situation and what you are lacking. Also, most modern jobs are close to trades than business and that is what I recommend (even as I am nominally in business, most of my day is spent on tradecraft rather than running the business). Yitzele Peterburger married his son to a daughter of a craftsman and people were appalled. He replied – if he were to mayy into a shopkeeper who possibly swindled a lot of people, this would be ok, but somehow a person whom Hashem loves for earning his bread honestly is not ok … Not sure whether this was in Yerushalaim or Kovno. And no mention of marrying into a rabbinical family either ;).

Dear Always,

That people today are insane enough to think that learning gemara ten hours a day would lend itself to one with bad manners.

I knew it was satire.