Reason for the Spanish Expulsion & Inquisition: Secular Education

It should be noted that the spanish jews never questioned chazal or wanted to change the Torah to fit the then-modern era. They were basically baalei taavah for philosophy.

Al achas kama ve’kama….

Chasid Yavetz justifiably criticized his teach Abarbanel, other Spanish Jews who dabbled in philosophy, such as Rambam, even known to non-Jews as philosopher “Maimonides”. As a result of his eloquent attacks, nobody ever in Jewish world studied anything in goyishe languages and the words of philosopher Maimonides are not studied much either. Chasid Yavetz left behind a large number of manuscripts, “most of them unpublished”.

According to my understanding, the Spanish Inquisition happened because wealthy Jews displayed their wealth a fancy possessions before the eyes of the Gentiles:

{1} Shevet Mussar, Chapter 17, paragraph 15:
Those who rise up against us seek false accusations against us when they see Jewish women decorated with gold and silver.

{2} Kav HaYashar, Chapter 18:
“Because of our many sins, the Gentiles have their eyes on Jewish wealth.
It is a very good idea to conceal your wealth from them.”

{3} Kav HaYashar, Chapter 82:
Imitating the fashions of the Gentiles… they provoke the jealousy and hatred of the Gentiles. They look at us and notice that Jewish women appear better dressed than the Gentile noble women; and we are in bitter exile, where according to justice we should be wearing black clothes to mourn the length of our exile and the destruction of the Temple.

{4} “Because flashy clothes and jewels draw so much attention to themselves, they may also draw the ire of your clients who may secretly question why your clothes are so much more costly than their own. Wearing flashy outfits is particularly dicey during a recession or during a down business cycle when company layoffs abound.”
SOURCE: 301 Smart Answers to Tough Business Etiquette Questions (page 142) by Vicky Oliver, year 2010, Skyhorse Publishing

I went to college and took three philosophy courses. I guess I’m toast then.

@Anon

Your interpetation is definetely the pshat that meets the eye “al pe derech hatevah” but Chassid Yaavetz was referring to the underlying cause what brought so many Yidden to convert r”l an more why did HKB”H bring the gzeira in the first place.
Similarly to the Neis Purim which is a natural chain of events but Chazal tell us it was because they partook in Achashveirosh’s seudah and/or they bowed to Nevuchanetzar’s tzelem.
After all we know “lev melachim ve’sarim beyad Hashem”

> They were basically baalei taavah for philosophy.

Maybe they had to engage in philosophy given the environment. They first wanted to show that Judaism is not inferior to the dominant religions, and then to delineate differences between us and them, including participating in forced debates, like Ramban did.

Chasid Yavetz was, of course, affected by the tragedy of his time. But, recall, Jews lived in Iberia for multiple centuries, surrounded by two very aggressive religions. Pining for purity of simple people here is understandable, but not realistic.

Thought experiment – none of the Spanish Rabbis engage with modernity; some of the Jews become rich and hear goyishe lectures (don’t have to go to medrasa or university, just from their neighbors or business partners), so the higher classes convert quickly, and they are also talking to their simpler relatives also… And this is repeated for tens of generations .. There would be Jewish philosophers left by the time of Chasid Yavetz, and he himself would have been a frum galach.

And future generations would have been less prepared for other challenges. No Rambam – No Shulchan Oruch – No Shimshon Hirsh. We would be paskening by Gemora w/ Rashi.
And no CR discussions about dead Moschiachs.

Rationalizing Jewish persecutions and massacres ex post facto is tantamount to saying they got what they deserved. It is the fetid, smegma-ridden underbelly of theodicy and should always be rejected.

For your own edification, try reading “Anti-Maimonidean Demons” by the late Sephardic Hakham José Faur a”h.

> most Spaniards today regard the expulsion as one of the dumbest things they ever did

is it indeed so? from a naive tourist perspective: if you go on a “general” tour, the guides will pass Jewish places without mentioning them. When they notice Jews or do “Jewish” tours, they’ll show you remnants of Jewish places, including pictures how they truck tombstones from an ancient cemetery to the museum you are visiting. They seem to see Jews akin Romans who were here before and left some artifacts for the museums of special interest.

Some posters here think that while the Torah is full of warnings that bad things will happen, and we will deserve them if they do, they think it’s horrible to apply the Torahs reasoning to Jewish suffering.

We do indeed get what we deserve. Klal yisroel deserved 40 years of wandering, churbanos, crusades, inquisitions, pogroms, and the Holocaust. Otherwise, how would Hashem have done those things? Hashem is a tzadik and we are guilty. We admit our sins and do teshuva. We don’t t, as the rambam calls it, act cruel and attribute our suffering to anything other than Hashem and divine justice.

I understand how survivors often are upset at the idea that the Holocaust was a punishment. We can’t judge people who went through that gehinnom. But what excuse to armchair philosophers online have? It’s total kefirah to say that suffering is just mikrah, pointless, random, or just because of racism or not being tolerant enough.

This is the rage of what i call the chanukah gelt god.

The chanukah gelt god, is something i share with my students. He’s a god which gives you presents. All he does is give you money and snacks. But what happens when you get a strep throat or fall off of monkey bars and end up wearing a sling for 2 weeks? Well, that’s not chanukah gelt god, that’s yom kippur god. Uou know, the god who makes all the things happen that we don’t like.

They get the idea.

Shema yisroel, Hashem elokeinu – Hashem is midas harachamin, elokim is din – Hashem echad, it’s all from Hashem, both good things and things we think are bad. Hashem knows exactly what is best for us, when we have no idea. Much like a child who thinks that chanukah gelt is good and yom kippur is bad. We’re mature enough to see how good yom kippur is, but we are not on the level to see why the Holocaust was good.

it is ok to discuss possible reasons, but maybe not with the recent survivors or their families. It takes time to see the picture. For example, we are now 100 years away from WW1 and can probably start discussing it. But were we to talk about it in 1920 without knowing that WW1 lead to communists, Nazis, WW2, etc – do you think we would come to the right conclusions? A lot of what was talked about in 1920s, whether in goyishe or Jewish worlds, did not foresee the horrors to come. As one examples, Yidden reveled in the democracies, newly established by League of Nations in Eastern Europe, spending their energy on democratic infighting with each other, and pressing the new governments of these countries. In some cases, leading to political weakening of these countries in the face of their aggressive neighbors – Nazis and Commies. I read post-war memoirs of Jewish politicians in Latvia and it is heartbreaking to read their late teshuva about their activities that were helping the aggressors.

Smerel, it definitely is kefirah to think that the fate of the jewish people depends on the bechirah of goyim. Even if their bechira can affect us, it only would be meorer dinim etc… Hashem directly drives the fate of klal yisroel, and according to almost everyone, the individual occurrences of a person’s daily life. To take the pashtus of some of the rishonim who said that not everything that happens is min hashomayim is likewise assur according to most poskim, after that view – if it even ever existed – was completely rejected hundreds of years ago.

But certainly to think that Hashem lets anything happen to klal yisroel without it being a direct gezerah…

By Purim, did anyone think that Haman was just a baal bechirah? It’s preposterous to a believing jew.

Avira, what has always annoyed me are those who claim to know the specific avairas that triggered the Holocaust.
However, a survivor can never be judged. .My wife had an inlaw who came from a very large chassidish family in Europe. Out of 70+ parents,grandparents, siblings, aunts and uncles, only he survived. He never set foot in shul again the rest of his life and raised his children with no knowledge of Judaism. The only exception he made was when we visited him in Israel. He kept a set of dishes for us, observed shabbat while in the house and walked me to shul ( he waited outside ).

And there is another way to look at Spain: immediately after the expulsion, Spain started conquest of Americas, committing numerous atrocities along the way. Abraham Heschel writes about it (in 1930s Germany, hint) – if the Jews were not expelled, they would be the leaders among conquistadors. So – what is better – be a victim or the perpetrator?

>>> it definitely is kefirah to think that the fate of the jewish people depends on the bechirah of goyim.

Claiming that believing that goyim have the bechira to kill a large percentage of kllal yisroel is kefira needs solid mekoros for it to have any weight.

Do you believe that the Nazis did NOT have bechira? Do you believe with 100% certainty that had they done nothing everyone would have been killed and experienced that suffering some other way?

The Torah very clearly says that Klal Yisroel would be enslaved but the well known Ramban (Breishis 15:14 says they had the bechira to be more benign and that the MURDER of Jews committed by the Egyptians (like throwing the boys into the Nile) was something they had complete bechira over .. Among many other sources that would support the concept of goyim having bechira to decide the fate of a large part of klal yisroel like the case of the holocaust. There are Rishonim who give other reasons for why the Egyptians were punished but no one who argues on the Ramban and those who say like him so strongly.

What is your source for saying that believing that goyim have bechira to determine the fate of a large part of klall yisroel like the holocaust is kefira?

The ramban doesn’t say that the mitzriim did so independently; he aays that they went beyond the gezerah of avdus, but there obviously is a new gezerah, which they submitted to of their own volition.

Want mekoros? Sefer hachinuch on lo sikom; you can’t take revenge because everything that happens to you is min hashomayim. It’s all over shaar habitachon in chovos halevavos. It’s in basically every machshave sefer of the past 500 years.

See sefer sifsei chaim from rav chaim Friedlander, who famously reconciles the sources which seem to say that a baal bechirah can affect others. It’s a beautiful piece.

And it’s pashut sevara; why would bechira allow someone to interfere with what Hashem wants to happen?

And that’s just for yechidim; how much more so for klal yisroel.

Pro, this is wby we have chazal. So we don’t make up our own religion.

The gemara says in bava metzia 58b that telling someone that they are suffering or that they lost a child due to their sins is onaas devorim. Does that mean it isn’t true? No! Chazal say to do teshuva when suffering comes. But telling people that is hurtful to them, because they most likely will not accept it as mussar; they’ll just be hurt. So chazal say to stay out of their business in this regard.

However, when there is no onaas devorim, such as learning a lesson from world events, you are obligated to do so. And gedolim are obligated to share their daas Torah with the public. Does that mean regular individuals know the answer to why gezeros happen? Certainly not. I had a theory about covid, but i would never share it with someone who was sick or cv”s lost someone. Actually, i didn’t share it with anyone! I kept it to myself, because I’m not a gadol byisroel.

The kefirah is believing in another, independent power besides Hashem.

The ramban is saying just that they can’t be blamed if they enslave the jews, because that was the job given to them. But if they decide to do more, they’ll be punished – but he doesn’t say that they can independently cause it to happen.

The suffering would have happened anyway, just someone else would have done it; Harbeh shluchim lemakom, etc..

The most important issue for Jews in 2023 is how secular education affected or people 500 years ago?

People who try to find reasons for tragedies are worse rhan dumb
Until you can explain to me why my entire family , including baby cousins, were brutally murdered in the Shoah, kindly keep your mouth shut

It is my understanding when R’Akiva (it might have been someone else) was being tortured by the Romans , and people were questioning Hashem, a Bas Kol came out and declared something like ‘if you don’t stop questioning my edict, I will destroy the world.
Can anyone corroborate the above?
Anyway AviraD, don’t be so glib when discussing tragedies. Shame on you.

Yechiel, this is an online forum.. I’m discussing the issue at hand from a daas Torah perspective; im not addressing individual people. The gedolim were very clear about the Holocaust. Some held back because of the sensitivity of the survivors, who couldn’t handle the idea, and they suffered so much.

But that has nothing to do with our time, and it certainly doesn’t apply to an anonymous forum.

I don’t get it. The quited passage from the Chasid Yaavetz does not give a reason for the expulsion. He merely points out how philosophy-based Yiddishkeit doesn’t hold out in trying times while those who worked on Emuna kept their faith.

HaLeivi > are fine doing so, as long as the reasons are Bein Adam Lachaveiro.

This is a fair description of the Gemora about BM2 destruction. And many mishnayos about reasons for various destructions … And punishment of Hofni and Pinchas … I think it is also easier for us to connect bein Adam LHavero with events, as they are mida k’neged mida.

The tochacha in chumash makes absolutely no distinction between aveiros that are bein odom lechavero and bein odom lamakom; the neviim spent more time talking about the YH for avodah zara than other things…

It’s not “easier,” it’s just more palatable because then all the good MO people with “integrity” and “ethics” can assume that they’re not part of the printing

Why motzi shem ra saying that only mo people care about integrity.

I am saying that it is easier for us to weigh on things we can observe. You got to be a gadol to decide that talking in shul caused a tragedy, but it is simpler to observe bein Adam leavers and connect the dots. Furthermore, mida kneged mida is a lower way to understand Hashem’s ways in the absence of nevuah