touching one's nieces

If the Rambam goes to the extent of saying that Hammechabbek ‘achat min ha’arayot she’ein libbo shella’adam nokefo ‘aleihen, ‘o shennishak ‘achat –mehen-kegon ‘achoto haggedolah, va’achot ‘immo, vechaiyotze –bahen-‘af ‘al pi she’ein sham ta’avah velo hana’ah kelal, harei zeh megunneh beyoter. vedavar zeh ‘asur hu, uma’aseh tippeshim –hu-she’ein kerevin le’ervah kelal, bein gedolah bein ketannah chutz meha’em livnah, veha’av levitto, how much more would it be distasteful and assur to have negiah with a niece. (Issurei Biah 21:6)

apushatayid,

Well, perhaps the poskim DO make that comparison.

The chibuk venishuk thing is by a sister, with whom technically the regular issur should not apply. There is no hirhur issue with a sister. And still, the poskim say that any affectionate touch falls into that prohibition.

But by a niece, where there is hihur, she is like any strange girl. Halacha does not differentiate between her and any other girl.

This is serious stuff. Speak to a reliable Rov. Don’t pasken from a coffee room!

or possibly you don’t understand the difference between chibuk and nishuk and negiah

It could be the rambam thought it was gross to hug and kiss an erva. Who says he thought it was gross to kiss a 6 year old niece?

Note, the rambam doesnt say it is gross to kiss a sister, just an adult one. Maybe he things its gross to kiss an adult you cant marry. Maybe its ok to kiss a child(also maybe its a different kind of kissing than an adult)

If the Rambam goes to the extent of saying that Hammechabbek 'achat min ha'arayot she'ein libbo shella'adam nokefo 'aleihen, 'o shennishak 'achat --mehen-kegon 'achoto haggedolah, va'achot 'immo, vechaiyotze --bahen-'af 'al pi she'ein sham ta'avah velo hana'ah kelal, harei zeh megunneh beyoter. vedavar zeh 'asur hu, uma'aseh tippeshim --hu-she'ein kerevin le'ervah kelal, bein gedolah bein ketannah chutz meha'em livnah, veha'av levitto, how much more would it be distasteful and assur to have negiah with a niece. (Issurei Biah 21:6)

16 yr olds dont go to the mikve. If they do we can discuss it then.

There is a special gezeira to make yichud with a penuya tehorah forbiden(Dovid hamelech was gozer). Was there a similar gezera on negiah??

Even if there was, was it on negia with a little girl or with a mature woman(12+)?

I’m not saying there isnt, but is there one?

RH: Why should it be different between an 8 year old and a 16 year old (who went to the mikva)? Are you suggesting that it is okay for anyone to touch the 16 year old girl?

RH: Suppose a 16 year old did go. Do you dispute that she is still forbidden to be touched by anyone?

. Your 16 year old daughter or 16 year old grandaughter is also a niddah

The shulchan aruch (well at least the gemorah and im sure its in the siman about yichud in EH~22)says you cant have yichud with her anyway. As for touching, I would tend to assume that its not appropriate, though I am subject to the same biases that you are. However do you have a source that anyone says its a problem? Its definitely NOT lo sikrevu. The structure of most of these prohibitions is Los Sikrevu.

RH: Suppose a 16 year old did go. Do you dispute that she is still forbidden to be touched by anyone?

I imagine you wouldnt say the following-“The pesak should be its assur to learn in kollel if you need to be supported. Even if its muttal meikar hadin(Rav Moshe says if its the only way that its ok-as i recall), “Es pas nisht””

We dont just make up issurim because you decide its pass nisht

The psaq here should be that one should avoid any negiah with a niece of nephew of the opposite gender. Even if something may be ok mikar hadin, it's still "es past nisht."

RH: The Shulchan Aruch states, l’halacha, to -quote- “stay far far away from women.”

Rav HaMachshir,

What agency do you work with? And if the mods can put us in touch, maybe we can see. If not, I am always interested in meeting new people, especially people in klei kodesh.

Tznius dress is Talmudically conceived of as a function of geography, in many instances. For instance, in Boro Park, a woman probably shouldn’t go with bare feet, while in other communities, this would be mutar.

I dont work for any agency. I have a friend on here with several aliases. You started to sound like him so I was curious. he knows my code name, and apparently isnt you.

Nice meeting you thought.

Rav HaMachshir,



What agency do you work with? And if the mods can put us in touch, maybe we can see. If not, I am always interested in meeting new people, especially people in klei kodesh.



Tznius dress is Talmudically conceived of as a function of geography, in many instances. For instance, in Boro Park, a woman probably shouldn't go with bare feet, while in other communities, this would be mutar.

for the people discussing the age there is a story were Rav Yaakov Yitzchok Ruderman was playing with a little girl he was told the little girl was 4 years old and he put her down. meaning that if a girl is four its already assur to touch her makin it obvious then that 16 is also assur

Dear Lander,
A lot of this thread is a confusion between the two. What about hugging a scared four year old?