touching one's nieces

I’m not sure what the halacha is regarding nieces, but you can definitely touch them until they’re 12.

kfb: You’re allowed to touch 11 year old girls?!? Absolutely not.

Aunt is an erva. Neice is not. Hence, they probably are not the same.

yes



the same applies to an aunt

Source? (other than us law and international creep laws)

kfb: You're allowed to touch 11 year old girls?!? Absolutely not.

The Rambam (IIRC) says something like it’s very foolish and playing with fire (i.e. strongly recommended against this), though it seems like it is technically muttar, as Sam2 mentioned (assuming hirhurim, etc. are not an issue).

The original question stated this was said in the name of the mishna berurah and asked “was he correct”. I’m sure the question isn’t “is the MB correct”, rather did this person correctly quote the mishna berurah.

To rephrase the OPs question, is there a MB that states, as asserted by Reb Somebody Shlita, that it is assur to touch ones niece once she is older than 3? If someone is familiar with this MB can they let us know where it may be seen inside?

What is the Halacha about one’s sister? I never heard of any issur but somebody very choshuv told me that it is a big chiddush that one can LISTEN TO HIS SISTER SINGING and it is not poshut at all.

I know that Hilchos Yichud with a sister is an in-between stage (temporary, not permanently), but is Negia muttar?

If you’re a women there’s no issue.

“2) The only permissible relatives for a person to hug and kiss are a mother/father, son/daughter, grandson/granddaughter according to some Poskim and a sister below the age of 3 (or 7 according to the Chazon Ish). (See Aruch Hashulchan Even HaEzer Siman 21:10)

Oh well, I guess my wife is out.

As an aside, why is it permissible to touch a grandson/daughter but not a grandfather/mother? And how is someone to touch their grandchildren without having them touch you back?

The Wolf

A niece is an ervoh like any other girl. I would like to know why anyone above thinks otherwise.

A neice is no different than any other strange girl is concerned, as far as the impermissibility to touch her.

My nieces are so cute!! I can’t stop kissing them and hugging them!! I don’t know how I am going to stop when they turn three!! they are sooooo cute!!!!!!!!

the only source we have for this presented for this was the Aruch hashulchan which was contested(due to the assertion(I dont have an aruch hashulchan in front of me) that it doesnt say you cant touch). The mishene berura in OC is probably discussing looking at an undressed girl.

So, what is the source for your statement? She may be no different, but why does that make them both forbidden. Maybe they are both permitted?

A neice is no different than any other strange girl is concerned, as far as the impermissibility to touch her.

Can one touch one’s best friend’s sister?

The Torah doesn’t differntiate between a best friend’s sister and a niece.

To all of you tzadikim above; the same issur also applies to an adopted daughter, even if you raised her from birth. I challenge you to find a Rav or Posek who will admonish a father for hugging or kissing his adopted daughter.

I know of quite a few frum men who are affectionate with their neices.

cherrybim: You say you “know of quite a few frum men who are affectionate with their neices.” Well maybe they are married to them. You are allowed to marry your niece, you know!!

Halacha does not differentiate between a niece and any other girl.

The quoted M.B. is in hilchos krias shema. There is a famous machlokes between the M.B. and the Chazon Ish at what each a girl is considered “ervah”. The M.B. held at three years old, while the Chazon Ish extended the age to about 6 or 7. He is a bit vague on the exact age. It’s whenever she starts looking too “girlish”.

The poskim say that this machlokes applies to hilchos krias shema and to hilchos negiah as well.

This is not a well known halacha and many are nichshol in it. I heard this from a huge posek, who told me that this is halacha, not chumra.

Also, there is a halacha that says it is disgusting and ASSUR to hug and kiss your sister. The Shulchan Aruch says the word Assur. It is not, however, the same issur as a niece or another girl.

The poskim say that any affectionate touching falls into that issur. An affectionate pat on the back from a brother to a sister also falls into that category.

This is also halacha, not chumra.

If you question this halacha, you might want to call a reliable Rov. These are very serious issurim and should not be paskened from a blog!

It’s not always an aveira to hug or kiss a niece.

It’s not always an aveira to hug or kiss a niece.

If she’s two years old, it isn’t an aveira whether she is your niece or second cousin once removed (both have the same status to you.)

I discussed this question with my Rav; I won’t tell you what he said b/c I believe that people should discuss their questions with their Rav.

Sam2: Reading your two comments here, it seems you are under the impression that men may touch girls until they reach puberty even though they may not even look at the upper arms or legs of the same girl over age 3 (per the Chofetz Chaim) or 6 (per the Chazon Ish).

That would be counterintuitive, wouldn’t it.

Not really. You are not allowed to hold your moneybelt or shild while davening, but you are allowed to hold a moneybelt or child any other time.

You are not allowed to daven while in a bathroom, but you are allowed to be in a bathroom while not davening.

So, Maybe, you are not allowed to look at a little girl while davening, but are allowed to look or touch a girl(unless its creepy, cuz then you might scar her and you might end up in jail)while not davening

Sam2: Reading your two comments here, it seems you are under the impression that men may touch girls until they reach puberty even though they may not even look at the upper arms or legs of the same girl over age 3 (per the Chofetz Chaim) or 6 (per the Chazon Ish).



That would be counterintuitive, wouldn't it.

I think the discussion here is whether shomer negia applies to arayos (nida, another man’s wife, a relative you are not allowed to marry, such as sister in law etc) or to other woman/girls as well.

BTW, what is your source for shomer negia by non arayos?

RavHamachshir: Your point would indicate that you believe it permissible for men to touch girls (anytime he isn't davening). This is clearly incorrect. (Shomer Negiah.)

You would break your brother’s arm for touching his 3-year-old niece?

RH: Why should it be different between an 8 year old and a 16 year old (who went to the mikva)? Are you suggesting that it is okay for anyone to touch the 16 year old girl?