The Five Most Likeliest Candidates to be Moshiach

Avira
“And once more, as mentioned ad nauseam, the rambam says that of a messianic candidate doesn’t finish his job, and dies, he is not moshiach at all, he is disqualified. He will not return to “finish” – that’s Christian second-coming ideology, and it’s not Judaism.”

I think you know this already but the Rambam says neherag not mes. Mes includes neherag, neherag doesn’t include mes.

As far as not Jewish, I hope these very Jewish sources will be enlightening… But before I post (separate post), I’ll just say that The Rebbes work is continuing, it has not stopped unlike the pundits who predicted by gimmel Tammuz that within 5 years Chabad will collapse or have a new Rebbe..

Avira

“Of course, the whole remote controlled killing theory is unfalsifiable. Maybe it was the satmar rov who killed stalin? Maybe it was the belzer rebbe? All of klal yisroel were davening for the Soviet union to fall”

So you mean there were also other Tzaddikim familiar in shomayims halls as much as down here, who also led campaigns to kill Stalin at the time it happened? If it was a secret it’s unverifiable, but The Rebbe literally led the Chassidim in a solemn recital of Hu Ra three times which no one understood why. 3 days later, we found out Stalin had died three days earlier. It’s public- at a farbrengen.

Same with everything else I listed, it’s all public stuff not secret closet avoda etc.

“I’m not dismissing the idea of a tzadik being po’el things in shomayim to save klal yisroel, end gezeros, daven for the fall of our enemies, etc…”

That’s great.

“ But it’s not what the rambam is talking about. He’s talking about retaking eretz yisroel, and his example is bar kochva.”

Forgive me but I must’ve missed where in the Rambam discussing criteria for bchezkas moshiach, he says that the candidate must retake Eretz Yisrael? I don’t remember Eretz Yisrael being mentioned at all there. The Romans back then were butchering yidden for keeping Torah and mitzvos, regardless of the fact they were living in Eretz Yisrael, and the Rambam doesn’t tie bar koziba to Eretz Yisrael. Correct me if I’m wrong…

Nomesorah,
Firstly thanks for your kind post. About your second post, there’s definitely a hierarchy of things to do to ready ourselves for moshiach, and the whole discussion of who it is is not very important right now outside of within
Chabad.

The important things to do to ready oneself for geula and bring it quicker are: keeping Torah and Mitzvos, learning Chassidus (moshiach told the Baal Shem Tov that he’ll come after his wellsprings are spread out) learning inyonei geula moshiach so one can be a maamin (not a kofer cvs) because it’s impossible to be mechakeh The geula on a daily basis if you have no clue what it’s about. Also then you can start to live in a geula consciousness etc. Reveal the spark of moshiach within you. Get ready to greet moshiach.

Cs, despite the work of Lubavitch in Russia, yiddishkeit was not “kept alive.” If you don’t believe that, check out Brighton beach and see how many frum people there are. Not a lot. 99% of Russian jewry totally were and are secular.

And others worked on their behalf too, including rav Yitzchok zilber, as mentioned earlier in this thread. He taught Torah in secret, and anyone who is frum either had him to thank or chabad, or both. Usually the latter.

And it’s unfalsifiable that the Lubavitcher rebbe killed him. He could say he was doing something in shomayim; I’m sure he did what he thought was some sort of kabbalistic act. But do you think other tzadikim weren’t davening for him and Russia to fall? How do we know any more than, say, if a televangelist had made similar claims?

I looked up the doctors plot. Historians are not clear on the details, and there’s no direct evidence that stalin was planning genocide against Jews. On the surface, it is agreed upon that it was a plan to purge the communist party of people stalin didn’t like, and 6 out of 9 of the doctors accused were Jewish. I don’t know if that’s sufficient, because many doctors are jews. There are only second hand accounts of stalin planning to deport jews or worse. And one report says that he wanted to deport them all to the Jewish Autonomous Zone, which actually would have been a net gain, because they probably would have not intermarried and would have been able to stay frum, to an extent.

We’ve also discussed why the rambam says “killed,” and it’s not a diyuk, because the word next to it is “if he was not successful to this point, or was killed”

Dying would mean “not successful to this point”

And killed is used because he’s fighting wars, so that’s what typically happens when fighting, as in the case of bar kochva

Dear Dofi,

Considering how you go on beating your dead-beat drum, I don’t see why Chabad should not continue with their mantra.

The people who keep raising the issues with Chabad have done absolutely nothing for klal yisroel for the last thirty years.

Meanwhile, Chabad’s utility, keeps expanding. All parts of Orthodoxy, are increasing their reliance on Chabad for matters of Geirus, Kashrus, and communal organization.

I know one frum family that is heavily anti-Chabad. They are natural leaders. All they do for the community is regular secular stuff. What a waste.

Avira,
I’m really glad I taught you something new, and that you had the humility to admit it. Now you’re absolutely right that if The Rebbe had passed, and his efforts to bring moshiach would have naturally stalled with that, there’d be no argument. Because that would be lo hitzliach ad ko. The reason why we enjoy picking on the diyuk in Rambam is because in this case, gimmel Tammuz did not at all affect The Rebbes work because it has only increased. And not through a successor but ask Abby Lubavitcher chossid who his current Rebbe is, and he’ll tell you it’s The Rebbe who empowers him in his shlichus and Avodas Hashem today! In this way actually, The Reeves is more alive than every other Rebbe etc today who still won’t take the achrayus of sending single couples on shlichus… in any case, in this case the diyuk very much matters.

Gadol hadofi, are you actually looking for an answer? Or rhetorical question. And if you are looking for an answer, remember you asked…

CS,

I most certainly do want a clear answer, “yes” or “no”. Do you consider it within the realm of possibility that someone besides any of the seven Lubavitcher Rebbeim, zt”l will be Mashiach?

@CS I am moicheh on the kovod of Aharon HaKoihen.
You don’t talk that way. What is wrong with you, the moderators and everyone here for allowing that. Moderators, please remove that chiruf vegiduf. You should be banned.
Why, btw, because Ahron Hakoihen wasn’t a Lubavitcher?
Your am haaratzos is obvious too.

Dear Dofi,

I missed your response to me. So I apologize for that last post. You are telling me to get real, and I can assure you that I am as real as it gets. Chabad – even activist Chabad, has gotten better about conforming to the halachic standard of others, For this reason, they are called on by Rabbonim across the spectrum of Orthodoxy to intervene in these critical matters so as not to leave a vacuum to the activist – and sometimes militant non orthodox. The fact is that many more Jews trust Chabad Organizations today. The majority of the YV had nothing but disdain for them, but relations have thawed and ideals have mellowed. The open eyed among the yeshivishe elite, have an eye to deciphering what Chabad did right.

You can stay in your cocoon and wait for some Chabadtzker to get caught in your AHA! trap. But the fact is, that they have successfully moved on, while we remain confused. As weird as it sounds, every (shteiging) Chabad Bachur that I met, is much more in touch with the real world than any of their counterparts. Their only youthful passion is the Rebbe and Toras Habaal Shem. Mir, Brisk, BMG, YU, et cetera, all wish their youth would have that passion.

Avira
“Cs, i do not believe that such an Arizal exists, because if it did, it would have been discussed here at some point, or one of the dozens of Lubavitchers who I’ve debated with would have told me, or i would have seen it in the messianic literature.

But I know very few maamarim of the Arizal, so please let me know if you find something like that, and we’ll discuss it.

I do appreciate your tone though; it’s refreshing.”

So, I did find some fascinating stuff (the most fascinating of all to me personally is that it accords/ confirms a personal vision in a dream I had of moshiach that I had a couple years back after I had asked to see moshiach after some work I had done… so I’m very grateful I saw this.) I’m not gonna look it up in the original because I have an exact quote, but you’re welcome to look it up in the original and of course let us know if there’s anything missing/ wrong. And thanks… I’ll post below

Just to comment on the discussion with nomesora, it is known that pnimius HaTorah is likened to fire and nigle to water, so it imbues those who learn with fire as well, whether they’re just starting or not. And hiskashrus to a tzaddik infuses one with chayus in avodas Hashem, so when you put them both together it makes sense you’ll get a double dose of excitement for
everything Hashem, Rebbe and Torah related

we seem not to be ready for Moschiach, as everyone producing a candidate list omits people from different groups from their lists – Y v L v MO, etc. Do you expect Moschiach to lead the whole of Jewish pepole or just lead the flame wars on Internet on behalf of your group?!

As death does not seem to be a barrier any more (gilgulim welcome?), maybe we should look at people who are accepted in all corners? Rashi, Ramban, Ramchal, Chofetz Chaim, Jonathan Sacks. There are also several candidates who made an effort to be accepted by broader Jewish community with some success, but, as a result, are less accepted in the yeshivish community despite their credentials. In my count, they qualify by their ability to lead the broader community, but I am not putting their names here to avoid reflexive loshon hora.

AAQ, I have no problem with anyone suggesting a serious candidate that differs from my own. I do not expect anyone not Lubavitch to accept The Rebbe as Moshiach. I would’ve been happy to come and answer the op and say, the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Who’s yours?

The only reason I write more is because people seem to think that I have no right to think my own Rebbe is Moshiach even though many people and of course Chassidim think he fits the bill.

People will have different opinions and that’s fine as long as they are Al pi Torah. BH there are many Jews of all stripes who appreciate Chabad and our Rebbes work

CS,
when Moschiach comes, we – hopefully – all accept him. Before that, you may try to think how you can make the world into a better place rather than idly speculating who M might be. There is no special mitzva to be the best guesser as far as I know.

Maybe it will help us (and you yourself) understand your position better if you could describe how it came to your mind to spend time speculating about who M might b. Did you read it in sichos? a yeshiva teacher? your parents? a Gemora? something in Tanach?

Avira, it’sa family thing. I’m guessing you’re familiar with the Rashi riu gidulim shehgidaltem. The Rebbe is our father (Avi Avi rechev Yisrael) and we naturally don’t want to bring him shame. I haven’t seen any sichos on this- it’s just sensible. I don’t why other groups aren’t similarly inclined. You tell me.

AAQ

To address this from a different angle,

“ Maybe it will help us (and you yourself) understand your position better if you could describe how it came to your mind to spend time speculating about who M might b. Did you read it in sichos?”

Yes

“a yeshiva teacher?”

Yes, we learned all about many things about moshiach and geula in an inyonei geula umoshiach shiur. For 4 years, in addition to time spent learning outside of school.

your parents?
A bit but no explanation

a Gemora?
Yeah of course. The 4 yeshivos who promoted their RY as a likely candidate.

something in Tanach?
The whole Nach is full of moshiach and geula, and of course in Torah there’s the Mitzvah of ir miklat which was never yet fulfilled, so that’s proof for geula, as well as the nivuah of bilaam. But I haven’t seen in tanach anything about identifying moshiach. Sources for that would be mainly that Gemara above, and the Rambam. And of course if you’re expecting the Geula at any moment (whoever isn’t is deemed a kofer actually) then it’s only natural to look out for anything related including his identity.

We need to stop making gedolim into popes, has ve sholom. Whatever great things Chabad and others were doing secretly in support of remaining Yidden in USSR, there were limits to their power. When students for Soviet Jewry started planning (ultimately successful) public protests in 1960s, they asked advice from R Feinstein, R Teitz, L Rebbe and Rav Soloveichik – all advised against. First 3 primarily because they were afraid of USSR reaction, including physical, based on their own painful experiences. This is documented in memoirs. Someone else asked at Ner Yisroel and got a positive response – that we don’t have preference for shtadlanus v public action, we have preference for whatever works.

AAQ
Just to clarify, we did not spend years studying about the identity of moshiach- that’s not such a long sugya. We spent years studying about the era of geula- how it will be, what we can do to hasten it’s coming, and as a side note- yea we kind of got into the identity piece but didn’t fully flesh it out. Probably at least half of that puzzle I learned on my own time.

moshiach told the baal shem tov (keser shem tov סימן א) when he asked him when he’s coming “when you’re learning with be spread and be revealed in the world and your wellsprings will be spread to the outside”
moshiach is someone who has the neshama called יחידה הכללית, he will teach the level in torah called יחידה. which is chassidus – chassidus is a taste of תורתו של משיח.
(ראה קונטרס ענינה של תורת החסידות)
and i wont even bother with the people who don’t beleive in the baal shem tov, he learned torah straight from achiya hashiloni and moshiach himself, so….

Sechel83: Among our resident Moishichists are some who might believe that the Besht himself is Moishiach

There is a part of Mussar and Chassidus that are the same.

What is the totality of being a Yid.

There is a part that is definitely different.

The direct effect on the practitioner.

And there is a much debated gap between the similarities and the differences.

How you feel about that gap, is how much of a misnagid you are.

Dear Sechel,

You seem to have a low opinion of the Baal Shem. Why do you need that he learned from AchHa”sh and Moshiach to justify his existence?