The Five Most Likeliest Candidates to be Moshiach

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  • #2198270
    sechel83
    Participant

    the basic idea of chassidus is ahdus hashem, this is yechida shebinefesh, this is a very very deep concept, when moshiach comes this will be seen with ones eyes, now who can – thru learning chassidus which explains this concept and contemplating in depth on this idea – come to such a recognition, every person according to his level and amount of time and effort he devotes to it, this is why chassidim learned chassidus for hours before davening and then davened for hours, some chassidim davened on shabbos or even during the week for the entire day to be able to see with the עיני השכל the g-dliness in everything more and more.
    the more a person internalizes achdus hashem, it refines his midos
    so its very diifremt then musar. no reaon to argue about this, just learn a few sifrai chassidus maybe
    תניא, דרך מצותיך, תו”א ולקו”ת
    if these seforim are too deep for a beginer, there are shiurim on them, or learn the first 4 volumes of likutai sichos which bring these ideas down to simple people who never learned chassidus
    so this is why the 9 most likeliest candidates to be moshiach are the baal shem tov, maggid, alter rebbe, mitiler rebbe, tzemach tzedek, rebbe maharash, rebbe rashab, frierdiker rebbe, the rebbe.
    now dont bring me any rav this or that who says moshiach cant be from the dead, thats a different discussion, the idea is that this is what moshiach will do – he will teach chassidus!

    #2198286
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Sechel,

    And yet there are some people who are gifted enough to achieve these states, yet they rarley daven or learn chassidus. So please explain why this is even part of this debate. If the Baal Shem had never spread his torah to his talmidim ch”v, nothing would be different. He didn’t invent any aspect of Hashem.

    #2198305
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Right…so instead of doing what the neviim say moshiach will do (rebuild the bais hamikdash, bring all jews back to eretz yisroel, restore malchus yisroel, make all of the world know Hashem, bring world peace, heal all the sick, etc..)

    Nope – his job is to teach chasidus.

    #2198332
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Avira,

    How do you think Moshiach will do all that? It requires compliance from everybody!

    #2206993
    CS
    Participant

    Avira- not a contradiction. Yes he needs to fulfill all his Halachic criteria to get geula set up. But once that’s done, why is he called a king? What’s the significance? The answer is that he will elevate the people by being משכמו ולמעלה מכל העם in his Neshamas level and comprehension of Elokus, which he will then use to elevate the people. (He won’t need to force/ control the people because we won’t need policemen when moshiach comes. So this is the loftier idea of a king.)

    See Derech Mitzvosecha- minui melech for more

    #2207056
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Cs, none of that happened, not even one part of it. And the rambam was aware of the lack of need for war, forcing etc after moshiach comes – but moshiach himself will have to fight wars and coerce people to follow the Torah initially, and that never happened. Not one thing on the rambams list happened at all.

    #2207251
    sechel83
    Participant

    litvaks understand moshiach (and judaism) very gashmiusdik. a king will get up – maybe natanyahu – get rid of all the arabs from yerushalayim and eretz yisroel, build the bais hamikdash, bring all yidden to israel and they will learn gemara. chassidus explains much deeper, what a king really is, the giluy elokus that will be then, what a bais hamikdash is bepnimius, etc

    #2207270
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Sechel, that’s extremely offensive. Have you ever read the chofetz chaim or rav elchanans seforim on moshiach? It’s extremely spiritual.

    Just he will also be a physical king.

    And he will be a tzadik, not netanyahu.

    If it’s offensive for him to say it is no less offensive for you.

    #2207328
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    >>>that’s extremely offensive.

    I must say that I agree with Avira here.

    Although I agree with Sechel that chassidus puts much more of an added focus on the spiritual aspects of Moshiach, with many maamarim explaining the level(s) of gilui Elokus that we will experience at that time, as well as discussing the neshama of Moshiach etc. –

    That doesn’t mean that the litivshers have a solely gashmiusdik view of the Geula, as if it’s something that could be done by some Netanyahu.
    This assumption is degrading and offensive.

    As Avira pointed out, if you look in the seforim of the Chofetz Chayim and Rav Elchanan Wasserman, you will find a lot on the ideas of לתקן עולם, and how we will be able to have a close relationship to Hashem.

    And obviously, Melech Moshiach is considered by all (Torah) groups in klal Yisroel to be a tremendous tzaddik and talmid chacham (as the Rambam (nigleh) writes in hilchos melachim and teshuva: הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצוות, חכם גדול הוא יתר משלמה ונביא גדול הוא קרוב למשה וילמד כל העם)

    The only ones who fit Sechel’s description are some segments of the “religious zionist” community who think Moshiach is some nationalistic idea of Jews taking control of the land of israel and appointing a king over the land. These people (like David Bar-Hayim, and the like) are not accepted in normative circles (to the best of my knowledge).

    #2207343
    yankel berel
    Participant

    This whole thread is a reflection of modern Habads influence and brainwash .
    our Greatgrandfathers & mothers were not busy with “candidates” for Mashiach . And nor should we.
    Rambam wasnt busy with it . Bet Yosef was not . Rama was not . Baal HaTanya was not . and Ben Ish Chai was not either .
    .
    Cf Tanya ,were he says [free translation ]
    .
    WHERE IS THAT NEW MINHAG COMING FROM – SOMETHING OUR FOREFATHERS NEVER KNEW – TO ASK A TSADIK WHERE ONES PARNASAH IS COMING FROM ? THE TSADIK DOESNT KNOW THAT ! LIKE HE DOES NOT KNOW WHO MASHIACH IS , HE ALSO DOES NOT KNOW WHERE A MANS PARNASAH WILL COME FROM AS BOTH OF THOSE THINGS ARE ONE OF THE SEVEN THING WHICH ARE MECHUSIN MIBNE ADAM ! THE ONLY TACHLIT OF GOING TO A TSADIK IS ONLY IN ORDER TO HEAR, WHERE AND HOW THE PETITIONER CAN IMPROVE IN HIS AVODAT HASHEM …..
    .
    Clear from Tanyas words that all of this is mere speculation , non productive and frowned upon .
    But who cares about tanya anymore …. We will cherry-pick only what suits us …..

    #2207359
    amiricanyeshivish
    Participant

    @sechel

    Even leshitoscho that Mashiach’s job is to teach Elokus why can’t that be done with Ramchal or Sifrei Hagroh? Did the sifrei Chabad put a copywrite on understanding Elokus? Do you think Kabbalah was invented in Lebavitch? The Rishoinim had the Keballah and the Sefardim wrote numerous Kabballah seforim.
    Besides saying “Chassidus” and referring only to sifrei Chabad is offensive to all the other Chassideshe seforim. Are they not also “Chassidus”??? Where they pashut not understanding their Rebbe the Baal Shem and the Mezritcher? Only the Baal Hatanya and his descentants understood it?

    #2207422
    CS
    Participant

    Avira- agreed- none of the conditions for moshiach Vadai have been met (and if anyone gives you a hard time on this- you can see The Rebbe say it himself in kuntres Beis Rabbeinu shebibavel)

    #2208713
    amiricanyeshivish
    Participant

    bump

    #2209393
    sechel83
    Participant

    why would moshiach be someone who is alive? he will teach torah to moshe rabainu and the avos, who alive today is eligible for that?

    #2209448
    Someday
    Participant

    @sechel83 Good question. After techiyas hamaisim, we will have back Rebbe Akiva Eiger, The Rambam, The Ramban, The Rashba, Abaye veRava, Rebbe Meir and R’ Yehuda etc… etc…, and as you say Moishe Rabeinu, the greatest navi who ever was or whoever will be. How can Mashiach born in our generation possibly be a leader over them?

    R’ Yerucham z”l, the (alter) Mirrer mashgiach, asks this question.

    He answers, that although obviously niskatnu hadoiros, even so, in one way, our generation is above all previous generations. We have nisyoinois they did not have…

    #2209453
    amiricanyeshivish
    Participant

    Just to add to @someday

    Rav Yerucham Z”L writes that a person today can be learning a sefer from someone many generations ago and little does he know that he is bigger than the writer of the sefer.

    #2209472
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    >>>in one way, our generation is above all previous generations. We have nisyoinois they did not have…

    This is similar to what’s explained often in Chassidus on the possuk “והאיש משה עניו מאד מכל האדם אשר על פני האדמה” – that when Moshe was shown all the future generations (עד היום האחרון – רש”י), he was humbled by the incredible dedication of the last generation of golus – עקבתא דמשיחא – to Torah and mitzvos, despite the incredible challenges and hardships.

    “וכידוע תורת רבינו הזקן עה”פ והאיש משה עניו מאד מכל האדם אשר על פני האדמה, שהענוה דמשה (משה אמת ותורתו אמת) היתה במיוחד בקשר לדרא דעקבתא דמשיחא, בראותו את המס”נ שלהם בקיום התומ”צ בענין אל יתבייש מפני המלעיגים וכו’ וכיו”ב.”

    #2209529
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Why is it so hard to think that the Melech haMashiach will teach Torah to everyone, even those who are greater than anyone around today? (That, of course, assumes that techiyas hameisim will occur at the same time as Mashiach’s arrival – I believe most do not hold that way.)
    When I was in yeshiva, if a guy would be giving a chaburah, very often his Rebbe would come to hear it. When my son says a dvar Torah he learned in yeshiva, I love hearing it, even though most of the time, I’ve heard it before, and the level is far below where I am.
    There are plenty of major gedolim who will listen to someone else give a shiur, even though they’re on higher levels. Learning Torah is not just about learning new things, it’s about the effort put into it. So yes, I could understand why even Moshe Rabbeinu would sit, and enjoy a shiur from someone who is alive today. It’s Torah, and nothing else really matters.

    I love this post, thank you

    #2209506
    Someday
    Participant

    @Menachem Shmei
    Thank you.
    Where is that quote, or the original source from the Alter Rebbe z”l?

    #2209538
    yankel berel
    Participant

    WHERE IS THAT NEW MINHAG COMING FROM – SOMETHING OUR FOREFATHERS NEVER KNEW – TO ASK A TSADIK WHERE ONES PARNASAH IS COMING FROM ? THE TSADIK DOESNT KNOW THAT ! LIKE HE DOES NOT KNOW WHO MASHIACH IS , HE ALSO DOES NOT KNOW WHERE A MANS PARNASAH WILL COME FROM AS BOTH OF THOSE THINGS ARE ONE OF THE SEVEN THING WHICH ARE MECHUSIN MIBNE ADAM ! THE ONLY TACHLIT OF GOING TO A TSADIK IS ONLY IN ORDER TO HEAR, WHERE AND HOW THE PETITIONER CAN IMPROVE IN HIS AVODAT HASHEM …..
    .
    Sounds quite MITNAGDISH , no ?
    As mentioned in previous post – this is written by the founder of Habad Hasidut !
    .
    Habad hasidim are not taken aback by this . Because if their Rebbe is greater than Moshe Rabenu , why should he not be greater than the Baal Hatanya ?
    .
    So the lesson to be learnt is – Absolute futility to bring proof or debate a Habad Hasid on theology . simply because their rebbe [in their own eyes] is greater than any source which could be used to prove or disprove his shita.
    Debating them is an exercise in futility.
    We should love them , respect them , but not debate them .

    #2209567
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Da, very well said.

    I would add though that chazal say that the malachim will ask yidden to explain Torah to them; it gets complicated how to understand things like rebbe Akiva’s drashos on tagin, or Moshe rabbeinu seemingly not being able to understand shiur from an amorah(or tanna, i forgot). Most say that it’s not information that moshe didn’t know, but rather the manifestation of it, the way it’s explained was different in those doros,and likewise there will be a different bechinah when moshiach comes.

    Yankel, the baal hatanya wrote in one of his later igros to allow chasidim to come for help in parnosa because they pushed for it very much.

    #2209651
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    To whichever mod made the comment on my post, thank you for the kind words.
    Avira, IIRC, it was R’ Akiva’s shiur on the tagin that Moshe couldn’t understand, and he was upset by it. Then someone asked R’ Akiva where these ideas came from, and he said it was from Moshe m’Sinai, and then Moshe felt better about it.

    Having people explain Torah to Malachim is easy to understand, because Torah lo bashamayim hi. In Shamayim they don’t necessarily know what the meaning behind a Gemara is, because that meaning is defined here. It’s up to us to decide what the meaning is.

    #2209724
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Da, i should clarify: my point about malachim learning from people is that it was said regarding yemos hamoshiach, which implies that until that point, that wouldn’t have been the case. And harayah, a malaach taught the mechaber..also, initially the malachim did have the Torah, and thought it too lofty to be given to people, so it seems that they understood it just fine…as for laav bashomayim, that refers to how we pasken, so yes, malachim cannot pasken for us, nor can nissim, etc…

    But the fact that malachim will come to us during yemos hamoshiach and not previously, together with the fact that they initially understood Torah, implies that the level of Torah knowledge in that time will be greater than before.

    But that doesn’t mean we’re going to be bigger than the previous generations; im guessing we’ll be given that madrega as a matanah, or schar for our efforts in learning….but that’s just a theory.

    #2209741
    sechel83
    Participant

    @someday: my point was to make you think, its a simple answer once you understand the sugya – likutai sichos vol 27 bichukosai. rav yerucham, mamash amazing chizuk vort but docent answer the question.

    @american
    yeshivish kabala and chassidus are not the same. toras moshiach is not kabala its chassidus. you can argue if you want, im just pointing out what shitas hachassidus is. (and musar has nothing to do with chassidus, furthest thing from it)

    #2209820
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @avira
    which sefer – what page ?
    it does not negate what I quoted re name of mashiach

    #2209843
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    >>>Where is that quote, or the original source from the Alter Rebbe z”l?

    The quote is from a maamar of the Rebbe (סה”מ מלוקט ח”ד ע’ 58), the Rebbe brings it quite often.

    These are the sources in the footnote there:
    ראה תו”א שמות נב, ב. תו”ח שם סד, ב. סד”ה ויאמר משה עטר”ת. סה”מ תרפ”ד ס”ע ב ואילץ קונטרסים ח”א נג, א ואילך….

    I checked in the source from Torah Ohr (Alter Rebbe) and didn’t see it so clearly (mostly kabbalistic terminology). It is more clear from the later Rabbeim, beginning with the Mitteler Rebbe in Toras Chayim (referenced above).

    Here is the quote from the Rebbe Rashab (סה”מ עטר”ת ע’ תסד):
    וזהו שנאמר גבי משה והאיש משה עניו מאד מכל אדם כו’ כי משה ראה . . שיהי’ דור בעקבות משיחא שלא יהי’ בהם השגה אלקית . . יהי’ כמה מניעות ועיכובים בגוף ונפש וריבוי העלמות והסתירים ויעמדו נגד כל מונע ויקיימו המצות במס”נ ובדרך נסיון . . הי’ בתכלית השפלות בעצמו מפני היתרון הזה שהם גדולים הרבה ממנו.

    #2209895
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    sechel, I’m wondering, as per the question you asked earlier about Mashiach teaching Torah to Moshe Rabbeinu – you apparently view that as a proof that Mashiach must come from the dead, because you believe someone can’t teach Torah to someone else who is on a higher level than him.
    Do you believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was greater than Moshe Rabbeinu was?

    #2210001
    sechel83
    Participant

    @damoshe, my point is to make you think, if you have complaints about how moshiach can come from the dead, i ask back this question, time for these antagonist to open a gemarah sanhedrin, rambam hilchos melachim, hilchos teshuvah, etc. (and learn the rebbe’s sichos on moshiach, because simply he the only one who learned and spoke about these sugyos so much, check out the sefer dvar malchus)

    #2210015
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Yankel, it’s in the compilation of his igros. I can’t find it at the moment

    #2210045
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    >>>why would moshiach be someone who is alive? he will teach torah to moshe rabainu and the avos, who alive today is eligible for that?

    I don’t understand this point.
    You understand how Moshe will rise from the dead, and even how Moshiach will be someone who rose from the dead, yet you can’t comprehend Hashem giving a living person the wisdom to teach Moshe Rabbeinu?

    Anyway, it’s clear in Torah that the תורתו של משיח will be divinely revealed to him, which explains how he will teach Torah to Moshe.

    Sources:

    1. The medrash says in ויקרא רבה (based on a posuk in Yeshaya) that a new Torah will come forth from Hashem in Yemos Hamoshiach, and in ילקוט שמעוני it explains that Hashem will give this Torah through Melech Hamoshiach.

    2. The Rambam writes about Moshiach teaching Torah: בעל חכמה יהיה יתר משלמה ונביא גדול הוא קרוב למשה רבנו ולפיכך ילמד כל העם – Moshiach will be very wise and a great novi, and THEREFORE he will teach the nation.
    This implies that Moshiach will teach Torah not just with his wisdom but also with the power of nevua.

    (ראה קונטרס תורה חדשה מאתי תצא תנש”א)

    #2210073
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    sechel, learn basic Rashi on the Gemara in Sanhedrin. He says that the Gemara doesn’t mean Mashiach can come from the dead, it means if you think Mashiach already came.
    The Rambam, in Melachim 11:3, says that Mashiach will arrive in a natural way, without miracles, similar to Bar Kochba. He further says that Mashiach will not perform any miracles, and will not resurrect the dead.

    #2210362
    sechel83
    Participant

    my point is that people think that a big gadol who knows alot of lamdus is likely to be moshiach, well
    the rambam says that only halachos of torah will be forever, (not shaklah vitarya, (questions come from a concealment on g-dliness, and kelipa, when moshiach comes, there will be no more kelipa, or concealments on g-dliness))
    my point it that some people dont begin to understand what moshiach is!

    #2211528
    yankel berel
    Participant

    Our Greatgrandfathers & mothers were not busy with “candidates” for Mashiach . And nor should we.
    Rambam wasnt busy with it . Bet Yosef was not . Rama was not . Baal HaTanya was not . and Ben Ish Chai was not either .
    .
    Cf Tanya ,were he says [free translation ]
    .
    WHERE IS THAT NEW MINHAG COMING FROM – SOMETHING OUR FOREFATHERS NEVER KNEW – TO ASK A TSADIK WHERE ONES PARNASAH IS COMING FROM ? THE TSADIK DOESNT KNOW THAT ! LIKE HE DOES NOT KNOW WHO MASHIACH IS , HE ALSO DOES NOT KNOW WHERE A MANS PARNASAH WILL COME FROM AS BOTH OF THOSE THINGS ARE ONE OF THE SEVEN THING WHICH ARE MECHUSIN MIBNE ADAM ! THE ONLY TACHLIT OF GOING TO A TSADIK IS ONLY IN ORDER TO HEAR, WHERE AND HOW THE PETITIONER CAN IMPROVE IN HIS AVODAT HASHEM …..
    .
    Clear from Tanyas words that all of this is mere speculation , non productive and frowned upon .
    .
    Again – this thread is another ploy in furthering the ‘candidacy’ of someone whose followers have a vested interest of promoting .

    #2211557
    qwerty613
    Participant

    The only certainty is that if he’s not the Rebbe, Chabad won’t accept him.

    #2211581

    So, would Chabad hold a veto over Hashem’s decision and even, Ch’V, delay a non-Chabad Moschiach?

    What if, Ch’V there is another group who only accepts Moschiach from their dynasty – will the world be stuck until they climb down?

    #2212353
    sechel83
    Participant

    there is actually a story that one of the rebbes said moshiach with be a misnaged because if he is a chosid, the misnagdim wont follow him.
    i would definatlly accept the biggest misnaged as moshiach as long as he does what the rambam says moshiach will do. my point is only that al pi chassidus there is a deeper meaning in moshiach, and gemarah and lamdus dosent have anything to do with it, so if hashem desides obviously he can send who he chooses to be moshiach and teach chassidus (see keser shem tov siman 1, and many other places)

    #2212393
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    … my point is only that al pi chassidus there is a deeper meaning in moshiach, and gemara and lomdus has everything to do with it ….

    Fixed it for you.

    I used to hope that it was obvious that Hashem can always do what he chooses, but somehow people have all kinds of reasons not to see that.

    You seem to have Chassidus as seperate from the rest of Torah. You are making a big mistake and that is why you struggle with the issues in these threads. If Chassidus does not correlate to the rest of Torah, what gives it authenticity and value?

    #2212450
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To Seichel83

    “I will definitely accept the biggest Misnaged as Moshiach if he does all the things that Rambam says Moshiach will do.” The Diyuk is that you and your fellow Lubavichers have already accepted the Rebbe as Moshiach even though he hasn’t done anything that Rambam said he would do.

    #2212451
    sechel83
    Participant

    @no mesorah. see tanya אגרת הקדשׁ כו
    dont know how to figured that, see קונטרס ענינה של תורת החסידות
    (if chassidus is musar of kabala, i might agree with you, but i learned more than a few pages and realized it has nothing to do with either)

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