Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher

Participant

Nom, the gemara in Sanhedrin uses the term ruach hakodesh as well, but it is clearly referring to nevuah, because of the juxtaposition with chaggai zecharya and malachi, who were neviim.

Ruach hakodesh itself was not batul, as the divrei chaim wrote in the teshuva you quoted, so much so that to doubt that gedolei yisroel have ruach hakodesh in every generation is apikorsus, the divrei chaim said.

Nevuah is ko amar Hashem. The words of Hashem communicated to a person. Ruach hakodesh is either what Hashem puts into your head, or being mechaven to the emes in learning.

Your sources have basically no bearing on nevuah – the rishonim on Sanhedrin clearly identify ruach hakodesh as referring to nevuah; this should go without saying.

The gemara also says that once nevuah was lost it was given to katanim and shotim – another proof that it is gone. Bava basra 12a, statement from rebbe yochanan “nevuah was TAKEN from the neviim and given to katanim and shotim”

I forgot to mention that gemara too.

Again – let’s find one case where a tanna, amora, rishon, or acharon calls someone a bonafide navi. You won’t.

AviraDeArah

Participant

Mdd – if a chasidishe rebbe is able to be melamed zchus on yidden and save more or even everyone; why not? I have no idea if it works that way, but far be it from me to want to deprive jews, reshoim or not, from geulah.

AviraDeArah

Participant

Nom…the chozeh of lublin never said “ko amar Hashem,” nor did he say he was a navi. He saw things in ruach hakodesh like tons of others.

You’re trying to make this into semantics. Nevuah is a definite phenomenon. It isn’t poetry like maskilim call it. It isn’t divine inspiration or ruach hakodesh. The rambam is clear about what nevuah is. Now i ask again, has anyone in the past 2000 years said “ko amar Hashem”, or any other such phrase, have they claimed to receive a direct communication from Hashem Himself? No. They have not. You’re trying awfully hard to avoid the idea that nevuah is no longer available today – why is that? Is it affinity for chabad? I don’t know why you’re beijg stubborn on this issue and marshalling unrelated sources, deflecting proofs by whisking away terminology, reframing the discussion into one of baalei mofsim and ruach hakodesh who see what is going on naachurei hapargod

Why not just admit it when someone has a strong taanah? It’s not that hard.

AviraDeArah

Participant

Evidently Hashem cares a lot about words and titles, because if a navi says something in the name of Hashem – even if it’s innocuous – and Hashem didn’t say it, he is chayav misa. He is killed. When he comes before beis din and says “eh, who cares what word I use… Hashem said, my inner spirit says, what’s the difference, as long as I’m getting jews to do the right thing, why do you get so hung up on terminology?

Wanf to know what happens to him? He gets “hung” up on a tree.

DaMoshe

Participant

Avira, doesn’t the Gemara also say that Ruach haKodesh ceased to exist after the last Neviim? I seem to remember learning that…
I know that I was told by one of my Rabbeim that today, we have no idea what true Ruach haKodesh is – the understanding is something completely foreign to us. He said that there are tzaddikim who have a type of siyata dishmaya, who are given the ability to see things which are hidden, but we shouldn’t mix it up with Ruach haKodesh.

Menachem Shmei

Participant

>>>Find one place where rhe rishonim say “so and so was a navi”

Tosfos often quote one of the Baalei Hatosfos: ומיהו אמר ה”ר עזרא הנביא (Gittin 88, Menachos 109, Daas Zekeinim).

Rabbeinu Tam is called a novi in Sefer Hayashar in a teshuva by R’ Eliezer ben R’ Shloma: ואחלי אליעזר לפני הנביא אשר ברמרוג רבינו יעקב אביר הרועים

The Rambam writes in Iggeres Teiman that nevuah will return as a preparation for Moshiach.

Obviously, there are many levels in nevua. The nevua nowadays is not on the level of the nevi’im before the time of חגי זכרי’ מלאכי.
So what did the the Rebbe mean when he said that nevua exists nowadays? What level did he mean? How does it fit with the Gemara? Check what he actually said, and you’ll know what he meant!

Menachem Shmei

Participant

>>>Avira, doesn’t the Gemara also say that Ruach haKodesh ceased to exist after the last Neviim? I seem to remember learning that…

That is indeed the wording of the Gemara.
נסתלקה רוח הקודש מישראל

But of course, avira has no issue interpreting this. It is obvious that this isn’t literal.
It is only what the Rebbe said that is an issue.

AviraDeArah

Participant

Da, that is precisely the gemara in Sanhedrin under discussion; it uses the term ruach hakodesh, but it clearly means nevuah and is thus understood by both its context and the meforshim. It says “after chaggai zecharya and malachi died, batla ruach hakodesh” – they were neviim, not nust baalei ruach hakodesh. Look at the rishonim there.

But you’re right that no one today has the kind kf ruach hakodesh that applies to kesuvim, like mishlei, tehillim, etc… which were written in ruach hakodesh. Our ruach hakodesh means that either our tzadikim are made privy to things in shomayim or that we are mechaven to the amita shel Torah with the holy thoughts Hashem puts in our heads.

mdd1

Participant

Avira, did not the Nevi’im and Chazal know about this perspective of yours and did not do it?! The truth must be told — that’s why. Just because a later-day Admor comes and says pshatim which totally change the view of Chazal and Nevi’im, it is going to help?!?

Jude

Participant

A prophet would not know every single thing; only what God wanted to reveal to him. During his lifetime Lubavitchers believed that their Rebbe knew absolutely everything, and in full detail.

n0mesorah

Participant

I’ll post it again for this page.
Maybe somebody on this site wants to learn.

At this point, I do not want to associate my yeshiva background with some of the posters on this thread. To me, it was about learning. Not denying what this one or that one learned. Some people know nothing. Rather they spent their entire time in beis medrash trying to “prove” that the other derech is wrong. It never dawns on them, that you have to learn things different ways to then select the better way. If you always “learn” one way, then you don’t realize that all the proofs you bring are only according to that one way. And someone who learns differently, has no idea why you think you are proving anything.

Nevuah is not a Lubavitch concept. I have no knowledge of what the Rebbe said or wrote on the topic. I do know that the claim that there is absolutely no prophecy in the present day is absurd and is only possible with a very superficial reading of the sources.

I once had the opportunity to learn through the topic with a Talmid Chochom. I’m just going to give the classic sources that have been alluded to here. We are disgracing all ancestors by rabble rousing without learning anything. If we would go back in time, our hashkafa would be meaningless to them. Because the fact that we don’t actually learn, will cast us as laughingstock.

The original beraisa about the the End of the Neviim is in Midrash Chazisa. Note, that it talks about Ruach Hakodesh and not Nevuah.

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14384&st=&pgnum=324

The context is the spiritual lost opportunities of the destruction of the Bais Hamikdash. It is clear in the discourse that these opportunities do not completely disappear.

Based on this, it is included in the Tosefta on Sotah. This is the correct context for where we lost our greatness throughout the generations.

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14307&st=&pgnum=562

However, the Yerushalmi there brings the story as a saying in the name of Reb Yehoshua be Levi. It does not mention the statement that Ruach Hakodesh stopped.

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14142&st=&pgnum=587

It is also brought in Y. A”Z (beginning of ch. 3) on how they were great enough to influence their surroundings.

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14136&st=&pgnum=616

And in Y. Horayos (end of ch. 3) in relation to the greatness of chachomim.

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14136&st=&pgnum=694

The Bavli in Sanhedrin 11a is in the same vein. (Specifically, to the chachomim that deliberated on the months and years.)

https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=24&daf=11&format=pdf

And the Gemara in Yoma 9b is about the opportunities provided by the existence of the Bais Hamikdash and lost in their destruction. This is the closest to the original found in the Midrash.

https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=6&daf=9&format=pdf

In all of these sources, it mentions using Ruach Hakodesh on events that were at the end of; or even after the Second Temple. And well after Neviim Acharonim. Nothing about Nevuah and it clearly was still in use. The concept of using the Bas Kol seems like something they did with some regularity.

The Gemara that calls Chaggai, Zechariah, Malachi, the end of Neviim, clearly mens the last written books. See Rashi.
B”B 14a https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=23&daf=14b&format=pdf

Here the Gemara discusses actual prophecy. The point is that it is still in existence if one cares to look for it.
B”B 12 a & b https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=23&daf=12&format=pdf

People quote the Rambam that there is no more prophecy. It’s a misquote from Yesodei Hatorah 9:2
כְּמוֹ שֶׁאָמַר הָאַחֲרוֹן שֶׁבָּהֶן followed by a pasuk from Malachi. This is the same as the Rashi above. There is more nuance if one learns the whole perek.

Incidentally, they also use the wrong Rambam as a source that Moshiach will be a Navi.
The Rambam in Teshuva 9:2 is explicit:
מִפְּנֵי שֶׁאוֹתוֹ הַמֶּלֶךְ שֶׁיַּעֲמֹד מִזֶּרַע דָּוִד בַּעַל חָכְמָה יִהְיֶה יֶתֶר מִשְּׁלֹמֹה וְנָבִיא גָּדוֹל הוּא קָרוֹב לְמשֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ.

The idea that we preserved these abilities and can still access them is a mainstream one. Everybody should be all in on it.

Here is a famous Divrei Chaim that accepting the Gedolei Yisroel is to realize that they have Ruach Hakodesh. Yoreh Dayah II 105
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=913&st=&pgnum=3

mdd1

Participant

Also, Avira, it is one thing for a Rebbe to be melamed z’chus. It is a different thing to make it like his limud z’chus is now the hashkofas Ha’Torah, and not what Neviim and Chazal said.

n0mesorah

Participant

Dear Avira,

“Evidently Hashem cares a lot about words and titles, because if a navi says something in the name of Hashem – even if it’s innocuous – and Hashem didn’t say it, he is chayav misa. He is killed.”

That is not what is going on here. I don’t know how you got this lost. But I suspect that you never got into the iyun on the sugya of nevuah.

You asked if anyone was called a navi in the last 2000 years. You assumed that being called a navi has meaning. I tried to explain to you that your assumption is not correct. And you responded with above. Please find your way back.

And you asked the question differently. “Now i ask again, has anyone in the past 2000 years said “ko amar Hashem”, or any other such phrase, have they claimed to receive a direct communication from Hashem Himself?”
Yes. Where have you been during Jewish History classes? Some of them have been shown up to be frauds. Some have many different versions. And a few have seforim on our shelves. We can’t know to the extreme degree who is a legit prophet. And we don’t have to know.

“You’re trying awfully hard to avoid the idea that nevuah is no longer available today – why is that? Is it affinity for chabad?”

I put right in the beginning that this has nothing to with Chabad. It’s about learning to understand. Do you always cross out the lines that don’t fit with your assumptions?

n0mesorah

Participant

Dear Coffee,

What you mentioned is about seeing Eliyahu Hanavi in the here and now, not about the future mission as the Herald of Moshiach. The fact that people could see Eliyahu Hanavi in our day, is also evidence that we are not without spiritual ability.

I have something to add to the Rebbe Is Moshiach conversation. Being that you are a renowned poster, I’ll address it to you. Too many here have lost their sense of reason. Who knew that Chabad is contagious?

There has always been a major tension between the Moshiach as portrayed in the Kabbalah and the Moshiach that is discussed in the Gemara. Kabbalah portrays a continuing mission that spans all realms. Halachists only see the man at the end who will fulfil all the conditions of Moshiach. There isn’t any contradiction. Just tension. And that tension is being twisted into this thread.

It is easy enough to go through the topic without being stuck in a contradiction. It seems to me that most posters would rather not resolve the tension.

sechel83

Participant

wo! crazy thread. i didn’t make the psak, plenty of accepted (by you guys i hope (i hope you dont only hold of rav shach) rabbanim did ie. הרב ישעיה אשר אייכנשטיין מזדיטשוב, הרב יעקב מנחם רבינוביץ מביאלא, הרב אהרן רוזנפלד מפינסק קרלין,הרב אליעזר דוב פרידמן (רב בית המדרש בעלזאורב דחסידי בעלזא – מכנובקא, לונדון), הרב שמעון סופר (האדמו”ר מערלוי צפת), הרב אליהו שמעון מרציאנו דיין בבית הדין בעניני ממונות צפת – מירון, הרב אהרן יחיאל לייפר מנדבורנא, הרב יעקב יוסף (בהגר”ע) [רב שכונת גבעת משה, וראש כולל חזון יעקב, ירושלים],
go scream at them,
very simple, the rebbe prophesized what will happen by the 6 day war and the golf war as well as countless private matters, and it happened, the rambam says such a person is a navi (if he goes bidarchai hanvuah which obviously the rebbe is qualified)
@? “and, as usual, ignored actual statements that I cited as ridiculous, e.g. the proof of Messianism from the fact that Beis Mashiach has the gematria of 770.”
first find my the quote! you just hear things from random people, there is a 10 page sicha about the idea of bais rabainu shebibovel, what you wrote is totally twisting that FOOTNOTE (its not a proof to anything) just learn the whole sicha. as well as your issue with shalosh siudos and suckah and i forgot if there was anything else, it all twisting and was already discused on tyw.
(sholosh seudos is a halacha is shu”a, as well as suckah, one of the complaints the litvaks have on suckah is the rebbe said sleeping is not part of the mitzvah – well the rebbe just quotes a rogetchover who makes a diyuk in the rambam, learn the sicha, learn chassidus, and
anyway im thinking of stopping to post
1) i realized that the people who actually have an issue with chabad these days are like 1 in a million
2) i couldnt care less for myself even if every other gadol had an issue with chabad, but i would like to educate people who nebech were misinformed, but i realize, that such people are not looking for the truth.
i may still post when im board to have fun.

n0mesorah

Participant

Dear Avira,

This explicit gemara did not say anything about Nevuah. Somehow you quoted it as such. Then you amended it to clearly referring to nevuah, which is not clear at all. And if the reader is not familiar with the concepts of nevuah will never find it anywhere in on the page. The only words are ‘when the last prophets died..’ which is reffering to the last recorded prophets. Nowhere else are they known as the last prophets. And we know from other sources that there where more people who attained prophecy in their day. Yet only these three are ever called ‘the last prophets’.

“Nevuah is ko amar Hashem. The words of Hashem communicated to a person. Ruach hakodesh is either what Hashem puts into your head, or being mechaven to the emes in learning.”

I have not yet attained prophecy or anything like it. Have you? How do you know these things? The Rishonim debated these meanings strongly. Nevuah is understood as being behind the words. The words are from the Navi themself. With some exceptions, where exact words may have been given. Ruach Hakodesh and Bas Kol are used at the will of the prophet. As is found in the Gemara you quoted is. I find your use of Ko Amar Hashem in this conversation to be very odd.

I laid out the sources for you…….

n0mesorah

Participant

Dear Avira,

If I am correct than the Meor Ainayim was a contemporary of the Tanya. My question is if you learned the Chassidus from the 19th and 20th centuries that is more like the original. Or did you switch to Rav Tzadok and Sfas Emes like the majority of Polish Yidden.

n0mesorah

Participant

Dear Avira,

My question is what to you do with seforim from our gedolim that contradict you understanding of shas? For example, Rav Meshulem Iggra.

n0mesorah

Participant

Dear Jude,

Yet it seems that the Anti Chabad of today hangs on to The Rebbe’s every word in the most literal sense possible!

sechel83

Participant

@mdd, Sechel83, for real? You expect me to give you on the spot pshatim in deep concepts from the Zohar? Most people should not be even looking at those statements. It can cause michsholim as we have seen.
again my point, the reason only litvaks have an issue with it (assuming its not from hate) is because they dont learn chasidus, anyone who learns chassidus is not blown off by it because this is a basic idea of chassidus and was talks about since the baal shem tov.
so i agree with you, litvaks should not look at that statement the first thing, if you start likutai sichos chelek alef, and go in order, by the time you reach that sicha, i guarantee you 100% you wont have any issue with it.
(btw i only found the marai makom of that specific quote thanks to avira on tyw, just trying to say that although i learned the sicha before, its not something i learn every day, the idea is mentioned in i think bahaloscha 5751 about every yid)

sechel83

Participant

(i forgot) on my post about the rebbe being a navi, i brought up the point that nisbatel nevuah, and i asked you back that the gemara says that yiras chait and anava were also, so will you attack someone who claims your rosh yeshiva or godol has yiras chait or anava?
so stop hacking and learn the sugya, menachem already quoted the sicha, and a rambam to learn.

n0mesorah

Participant

Dear Sechel,

The Litvaks issue with these things is that these concepts were also learned them before the Baal Shem. They don’t need to readjust everything to fit in that prism.

mdd1

Participant

Sechel83, it is also the basic idea of Christianity. They just think it refers only to one Jew.

qwerty613

Participant

To Menachem Shmei

Let’s assume you’re right and the Rebbe’s Pshat in the Gemara is correct, i.e. all Jews will be redeemed when Moshiach comes. Here’s a problem. The Gemara quotes an Amora who said that he doesn’t want to be alive when Moshiach comes. Now that makes sense if we accept the old-fashioned, now disproven pre-Rebbe Pshat that very few Jews will actually be redeemed. But according to the new and improved version, it’s gonna be party central. Alan Dershowitz, Woody Allen, and Bernie Sanders will have a Ketzos Chavrusa. So why would that Amora not want to see that halcyon period?

AviraDeArah

Participant

No one has addressed the gemara i quoted in bava basra which says that after the churban, nevuah was taken from neviim and given to katanim and shotim.

AviraDeArah

Participant

Nom, whose seforim do we have on our bookshelves (or rather, the yeshiva worlds bookshelves; edited) which say that Hashem spoke to them? Are you referring to the giluyim of the Arizal? He learned things from shomayim, from malachim, so did the shulchan aruch; that’s not nevuah.

Rav avigdor miller writes that even the early christians were terrified of using the phrase “ko amar Hashem,” so much so that it does not appear in the new testament. Yet chabad had less fear of that concept than they do!

Re, names and appellations; i was not aware of the baalei tosfos calling each other that. I think it is just a praise – rabbeinu tam never says the words ko amar Hashem, or that Hashem told him something, or that he had a prophetic vision.

Re, the Lubavitcher rebbes “prophecies.” The CIA said that israel would win in “around a week,” which is why the satmar rov said that “if the 6 day war was a miracle, Johnson was a navi!” Maybe the Lubavitcher rebbe overheard someone talking about Israel’s vast air force advantage, etc…who knows.

I love it when gematrios are used as….”proofs” to things in chabad. Want to know how many christian/yushke gematrios there are throughout tanach? The missionaries love this stuff.

Outside of chabad, genatrios were never, ever meant to be a proof to anything. They augment what we know already; they’re hints to things, hence the name remazim. no one ever tried to prove anything with a gematriah before.

770 is also gematriah “bais nachash.” I am in no way saying that the Lubavitcher rebbe was such – i am merely saying that gematrios can potentially be manipulated and skewed to mean anything. But they’re a chelek of Torah for us to see a deeper meaning of things we already know.

Menachem Shmei

Participant

>>> The Gemara quotes an Amora who said that he doesn’t want to be alive when Moshiach comes. Now that makes sense if we accept the … Pshat that very few Jews will actually be redeemed. But according to the new and improved version, it’s gonna be party central … So why would that Amora not want to see that halcyon period?

Why would some amoraim not want to see the Geula?
Hmm… Great question!
Why don’t you check what the Gemara answers (instead of giving your own answers)!?
[Until now I thought that it’s only the Rebbe who you take out of context without checking what he explains. Now I see that you do the same with Gemara!]

The Gemara says it was because he was afraid of the suffering that comes with chevlei Moshiach.
I don’t know where you made your connection.

Once we’re on the topic of this Gemara, it’s important to mention that this opinion (of Ulah and Rabba) is not the only opinion. Rav Yosef argued with them, he said let Moshiach come despite any suffering.

Who is the halacha like? Every single Jew, even the greatest sinner, is obligated to await and yearn for Moshiach at every single moment of the day. If a Yid says that he doesn’t wish to see Moshiach, he is a kofer in Torah Shebiksav and Shebaal Peh, as the Rambam writes:
כל מי שאינו מאמין בו או אינו מחכה לביאתו, לא בשאר הנביאים בלבד הוא כופר, אלא בתורה ובמשה רבינו

This is also part of the Ani Maamin (indeed, not written by the Rambam) – אחכה לו בכל יום שיבוא

Every single Yid is obligated to proclaim three times a (week)day לשועתך קוינו כל היום – “We hope for your salvation (through Melech Hamoshiach – צמח דוד עבדך) ALL DAY LONG.”
And in that zechus we ask for Moshiach to come SPEEDILY (מהרה תצמיח, כי…). See Chida.

Even on Shabbos, we say ותחזינה ענינו בשובך לציון – May OUR OWN eyes see the return of the Shechina with the Geula.

You may ask, how can I call someone a kofer for following the view of some amoraim in the Gemara?
The answer is, we see precedent: R’ Hillel said אין להם משיח לישראל אלא הקב”ה גואלם – Yidden lost their chance to have a human Moshiach, and instead Hashem will redeem us. Others argue with him.
The Chasam Sofer writes in his teshuvos that since we don’t hold like R’ Hillel, כל האומר כרבי הלל הוא כופר בכלל התורה – anyone who says like R’ Hillel is a kofer in a foundation of Torah.

Menachem Shmei

Participant

>>>I love it when gematrios are used as….”proofs” to things in chabad.

They are not used as such.

Saying that 770 is gematriya beis moshiach is not the same as proving something from the gematriya.

ARSo

Participant

I’m surprised that no one has pointed out (perhaps they did and I missed it) that when the Lubavicher rebbe apparently “proves” that nevuah exists nowadays, he is referring ONLY to his father-in-law and, according to his followers, himself. And his proofs of his father-in-law’s and his own nevuah just don’t hold water. Where and when did he prophesy what will happen in the Six-Day-War and the Gulf (Not golf war, as you wrote it. That was between Obama and Trump.) War? Saying that one side will win doesn’t qualify as nevuah unless you say a time and a place.

I want to point out once more that the standard answer is, “Learn something-or-other in its entirety and you will understand,” knowing very well that we on the other side (I assume Lubavichers will translate that as sitra achra) have no intention of doing so. I know I won’t, and I have three reasons.

1. I’m scared that reading too much of his writings will lead me astray. That has been the case with many people I personally know. Although, Lubavichers will probably not agree that it is astray.

2. As I have written a number of times in the past, I have had a very long connection with Lubavich and I have, in fact, been more or less force-fed long explanations of the Lubavicher rebbe which did not make any sense except to the person who was convinced that they were fantastic even before he himself had learnt them. How many times have I heard, “There’s a fascinating letter of the rebbe…” and then been read something simplistic, or self-serving and the like? (Correct answer: many times.) In case you’re wondering, despite only very rarely finding/hearing anything worthwhile that the Lubavicher said/wrote, I am still scared of being influenced badly. See point 1 above.

3. I believe it is wrong halachically to read the writings of someone who so clearly was self-promoting and believed that no other gedolei Yisrael were comparable to himself. Not to mention someone who could play with halacha, e.g. paskening that you need not sleep in the sukkah if you are mitzta’er that you CAN fall asleep. (As I wrote, that’s my all-time favorite.)

AviraDeArah

Participant

Menachem, you’re misquoting the gemara about rebbe hillel; he doesn’t say that Hashem will redeem them, he says only “ain moshiach ba lyisroel,” moshiach will not come. Rashi says that he means that Hashem will redeem them Himself, but many understood rebbe hillel literally, and that’s what we pasken to be kefirah. I don’t know if it’s kefirah to follow rebbe hillel according to rashis pshat, but nevertheless the gemara says he was wrong, and that Hashem should forgive him (rebbe hillel) for saying that.

n0mesorah

Participant

Dear Avira,

I linked to that Gemara. It’s a source that nevuah is not heaven sent words.

The newer parts of Eitz Chaim describe the methods to attain prophecy. These methods come from yidden who claimed to have attained prophecy in the last thousand years. These original writings were published only recently. Your yeshiva may have a copy. Check the Kabbala section.

I am not claiming the Rebbe had anything to do with prophecy. It is irrelevant to the sugya. For those who go by Torah Sources and not superficial-my-teacher-told-me, there is no end of nevuah. And chas v’shalom to even believe such a thing. Nevuah is less common and less authentic then it was in the times of Tanach.

qwerty613

Participant

Let’s take a step back. What we can discern from this and similar threads is that Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach and that he is(was) a Novi. Not long ago England crowned a new king. The event was witnessed by hundreds of millions throughout the world. Chabad is telling us that the Rebbe was anointed Moshiach, essentially making him king of the entire world, but no one knows about it. There’s not even a YouTube clip. And as for his being a Novi, one of the posters said this was proven during the 6 Day War. At that time Rav Moshe was the unquestioned Gadol Hador. All that was needed was for the two to meet and Rav Moshe would have tested him. As Avira correctly stated, Nevuah is definable, it’s not voodoo. Chabad wants us to trust them at their word. No chance. We are a stiffnecked people. Finally, how ridiculous is it to suggest that the Rebbe understood Pshatim in the Gemara that no one in the last 2000 years knew?

n0mesorah

Participant

Dear Arso,

I think you have two issues with Lubavitch. All the details will fall into one of two categories.

1) They/he promote themselves and ignore the rest of us.

2) They/he explains Jewish concepts contrary to the norm.

I don’t know why either one should bother me as an outsider. But anyways, each problem is an answer for the other issue so there isn’t any reason for any Lubavitchers to think you have a point. It comes down to is the beholder Lubavitch. If he is, it all fits. If he is not, than it doesn’t work. So move on.

ARSo

Participant

“Saying that 770 is gematriya beis moshiach is not the same as proving something from the gematriya.”

You’re right. It isn’t. But it is VERY childish and doesn’t suit someone who you consider being worthy of being Mashiach.

n0mesorah

Participant

Dear Qwerty,

Instead of taking a step back, step up and answer the questions that were put to you. You are being more evasive than any Chabadtsker on this thread.

I didn’t notice any posters claiming that The Rebbe was coronated as Moshiach.

Around the time of the Six Day War there was a global campaign to discredit Rav Moshe.

Nothing in Judaism has been universal for a long, long time.

There were Torah Giants of infinite magnitude that were living in obscurity, especially in the postwar decades.

I think Rav Moshe and the Chabadsker Rebbe have met in person.

Nevuah is definable. But I won’t know exactly until I have a prophetic experience. Who accept as a Navi also has parameters. But it clearly is not foolproof. And it follows, that one can be a Navi with nobody knowing about it.

Nobody on this thread asked for you to trust Chabad. The question is, why are we so obsessed with Chabad’s opinions? You don’t seem to be able to answer for yourself. If I could talk for you I would say that you don’t have any of your own opinions on the matter. So you become Anti Chabad in place of anything worthwhile.

“Finally, how ridiculous is it to suggest that the Rebbe understood Pshatim in the Gemara that no one in the last 2000 years knew?”

It is very ridiculous.

1) The statements in question are not yet 2000 years old.

2) The Rambam makes an allowance for rejecting the sources about the messianic age.

3) You must be very bothered by Rav Shach’s very novel pieces in Sefer Avi Ezri.

4) The Rebbe’s encyclopedic knowledge, near photographic memory, and lighting-fast wit, enabled him to validate himself with sources in seconds. If this was your main issue and you discovered the secret concept of learning to better understand, and had you gone to The Rebbe and asked for sources – he would have given you a dozen sources for every point in one minute.

I am very against inferring real world abilities, from virtual interactions. But it does seem like you really never learn anything.

AviraDeArah

Participant

Nom, if mekubalim have experienced nevuah, they would he obligated in halacha to reveal it, as kovesh nevuaso is totally assur. And since the Arizal never said ko amar Hashem or the like, it’s clear that he was not a Navi.

I have no idea what the eitz chaim says, but it’s probably academic; these are the steps a Navi would take, and I’m sure there are spiritual benefits to such things, snd madregos which are nogaya for holy jews, but like i keep saying – no one has ever said “i received a nevuah” or anything remotely similar to the way a navi expresses himself.

n0mesorah

Participant

Dear Avira,

Who says they were told anything to tell others? The Gemara says there where over a million neviim…

I still find your fascination with ‘Ko Amar Hashem’ humorous.

In one instance there was a yid going around with messages from Hashem, making predictions, and performing signs and miracles. What exactly he was, has never been settled. And it seems like all the later mekubalim accepted his teachings until the Arizal redid everything.

If you have no idea what the sources say, you can learn them or talk to people who do. The fact is that you are denying an activity that you are admitting to having no knowledge of how it is performed. And I am asserting that you have never studied what Nevuah actually is. The Moreh Nevuchim is a good place to start.

But somehow you are convinced that you have all the knowledge you need. Which is some statement from Chabad that must be reversed. If Chabad would sleep in the sukkah, you wouldn’t.

n0mesorah

Participant

Dear Menachem,

The Chassam Sofer wouldn’t apply to your reasoning.

It is a slightly problematic source for the whole Chabad Moshiach Enterprise. Since The majority of Yidden did not align their concept of Moshiach with the shift from Europe to America, than perhaps even Lubavitch is obligated to follow the majority. There are other ways to maintain the faith in the ultimate redemption.

DaMoshe

Participant

Let’s say Chabad is right, and the Rebbe predicted the 6 Day and Gulf Wars. That’s not a sign of nevuah!
R’ Chaim Kanievsky predicted that Bnei Brak would be safe during the Gulf War, and no Scuds would fall there – and he was proven to be correct.
R’ Bender has a story in his sefer on Chumash (volume 2) where his brother Michoel was approached by a woman who was sick while pregnant, and the doctors felt she needed to terminate the pregnancy in order to save her life – if not, both she and the baby wouldn’t survive. He told her there was no need to terminate, and she would be fine. At her next checkup, the scans showed that the illness had disappeared.
Do you think they both have nevuah? Earlier in this thread, the idea of Ruach haKodesh/siyata dishmaya was discussed. It’s not the same as nevuah.
Your only proof that the Rebbe was a navi was that the Rebbe himself said so – which he didn’t even say straight out, he said his father in law was one!

n0mesorah

Participant

Dear Avira,

Do you look anything up?

Here is the Chasam Sofer. 2:356

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1839&st=&pgnum=294

Even one who understands Rav Hillel Like Rashi is a Kofer for saying he holds like him.

AviraDeArah

Participant

Here are some sources which indicate that nevuah has ended.

Meforshim on malachi:

Mahari kara and malbim on 3:22, ibn ezra on the first pasuk, abarbanel also on that pasuk.

Avos D’Rebbe Nosson 47 says it stopped because of certain aveiros.

Radak on chaggai 2:5

pesikta Rabbasi 35

Maharsha on Yoma 9b, says nevuah stoppped because jews didn’t go back to EY when they had the chance.

Seder olam rabba 30 says that nevuah stopped by Alexander the great.

Rav tzadok hakohen in Resisei Laylah, 81b says that nevuah stopped when avodah zara ended, same as the gaon i mentioned above.

Michtav meliyahu chelek 3 pages 277–278

It’s not “what you heard in school”

Most things that are commonly taught in yeshivos are true. Rebbeim know things..there is a mesorah which you seem to want to undermine at every chance you get.

As for sukkah…i have nothing against chabad as a concept. I’ve outlined my reasons for being against divergent elements of neo chabad, some of which you agree with. They present a danger to mesorah and yiddishkeit, and almost the entire yeshiva world recognizes that.

AviraDeArah

Participant

Nom, i said i wasn’t sure if following rashis pshat would be kefirah – i didn’t say it was or wasn’t. The chassm sofer says it is – so fine. Thanks for the source.

As for mekubalim, I don’t think you’re a mekubal. Mekubalim are not on the internet and they don’t believe that atheism is kosher as long as you keep the mitzvos.

As for what the rishonim say about nevuah, there are different facets and different opinions; so what? And i am speaking about ko amar Hashem so much because that and words like it are definitive nevuos. Nobody uses terminology like that or says that Hashem spoke to them.

I don’t believe you’re qualified to learn eitz chaim in any meaningful way because you’re not a talmid chacham of that stature, and neither am I. I also don’t know about this unnamed individual you say was believed to be a navi – who is he, what did he say, and what was said about him? Was he a shoteh? Nevuah can be transmitted through shotim.

Menachem Shmei

Participant

>>>The Chassam Sofer wouldn’t apply to your reasoning.

My point was as follows:

Unfortunately, there are people today (e.g. Yaron Reuven) who claim that Moshiach isn’t an exciting thing that we should be looking forward to, rather a terrifying thing that we should hope to never experience. They base this misconception on the aforementioned statements of Ulla and Rabba.
(“If such great amoraim didn’t want the Geula, why should we?”)

My answer was that the accepted psak throughout Jewish history was that Moshiach is something we should constantly be looking forward to (as reflected in our daily davening and Rambam).

If someone would claim that it is valid to not want to experience Moshiach based on Ulah’s opinion, my response would be comparing it to the Chasam Sofer.

Menachem Shmei

Participant

>>>R’ Chaim Kanievsky predicted…

On the topic of Reb Chaim Kanievsky, I found something very interesting in the sefer אשכתבא דרבי – בני ברק תשמ”ו about his father (the Steipler). It is about 5 pages long, so I will summarize:

The Rambam writes that it is a foundation of Torah that Hashem gives humans nevuah. He says that as soon as someone purifies himself etc. the ruach hakodesh rests upon him, and he is a novi. Hashem sends us these people to inform us the future, and even the physical needs of individuals, as we find with Shmuel and the donkeys of Shaul’s father.

Since this is one of the foundations of the Torah, it is even applicable nowadays, despite the fact that we are in a state of concealment.

In every single generation, Hashem planted great Jews who have this very power of nevua as the neviim of old.

We know of the great powers of the Chofetz Chayim (-he goes on to recount some stories) as well as the Chazon Ish.

And in our generation, we merited to have the Kehilos Yaakov who is way above the rest of the nation. In his perfection, he has served to be a רואה (-he explains earlier that this is another title used for neviim (ע”פ מצודות דוד), specifically when they are prophesying regarding physical matters).

Many people think that he would just give brochos, but this is not the case. Rather, he is one of the רואים just as in the days of old, since this is an eternal part of klal Yisroel.

ע”כ תוכן דבריו.

It’s quite ironic, because if you learn the sicha of the Rebbe that everyone keeps quoting (but no one actually read of course, for the fear of being “led astray” (i.e. getting convinced)) – you’ll see that this is almost exactly the same idea that the Rebbe is conveying. Including the way they learn the Rambam, etc.
(By the way, did you learn through Rambam hilchos yesodei Hatorah about the halachos of nevuah? If you didn’t, that’s a pretty good reason why you can’t seem to fathom the idea of current nevuah).

I’m convinced that if you would actually read the sicha as well as the אשכבתא דרבי, you will switch your argument, and start attacking the Rebbe for just copying what was written about the Steipler 🙂.

You can find אשכתבא דרבי on Otzar Hachochma for free (tablet.otzar dot com). Page צח ואילך.

AviraDeArah

Participant

Menachem, i try to give people the benefit of the doubt and not assume that they are being deceitful. But what you wrote from that sefer is completely inaccurate and misleading.

The maspid says that in our time, THROUGH THEIR TORAH the gedolim are able to function similarly to neviim and explain world events, and see things deeply like the neviim did with nevuah. In this way, the yesod of nevuah remains in klal yisroel, for it is eternal. But it is not nevuah itself. It’s like how chazal say that a chacham is adif m’navi, because the chacham can access the dvar Hashem whenever he wants, and a Navi only can get it when Hashem talks to him.

DaMoshe

Participant

Menachem, you’re quoting something written by another Chabad Rebbe to back up improper thoughts from another Chabad Rebbe. Try bringing a source from somewhere OUTSIDE Chabad.

n0mesorah

Participant

Dear Menachem,

Okay, I didn’t follow you well. I recant. The Chassam Sofer is definitely backing you up on this.

Good tzu shtel!

n0mesorah

Participant

Dear Avira,

I’m not a mekubal at all. I don’t have limits on what seforim I open. The Rashba was against following this person. But about half of his teachings were mainstreamed even before Shabbtai Tzvi. And now we know that the Arizal continued to incorporate these methods even afterwards.

ARSo

Participant

“The Rebbe’s encyclopedic knowledge, near photographic memory, and lighting-fast wit, enabled him to validate himself with sources in seconds. If this was your main issue and you discovered the secret concept of learning to better understand, and had you gone to The Rebbe and asked for sources – he would have given you a dozen sources for every point in one minute.”

n0m, I’m sure you believe the above, but I saw and heard the Lubavicher rebbe live and I never found that he demonstrated the above.

“Encyclopedic knowledge” – he prepared his sichos (I heard this from informed fully-fledged Lubavich sources decades ago). Unlike most other rebbes who spend a majority of their time dealing with askonim on inyonei tzibbur and and regular supplicants, the Lubavicher rebbe sat in his room by himself most of the day. It makes sense that he prepared his sichos. (Btw the same sources said to me that he did not prepare his maamorim because they came directly min Hashomayim when he said them. So you can see that my sources were true believers.) And he had an entire team searching for sources when they wrote and published the sichos. So I don’t see that he necessarily had encyclopedic knowledge.

“Near photographic memory” – only near? Or perhaps some of the photographs were not developed clearly. Anyhow, on what basis do you make that claim?

“Lighning-fast wit” – really? I heard him speak many times and he was ponderous and repetetive. He could make the occasional witticism, but to label his wit as lightning-fast?! That’s debatable. (I say debatable because I say it wasn’t and you’ll continue to say it was.)