Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher

If you’ll look closely, you’ll see that those current threads discussing lubavitch are usually started by the same one or two posters.
You are correct that many people bring up the topic because they are talking to Lubavitchers. I grew up in an area with many Lubavitchers and Litvaks. Many times when the Litvish Bochurim met the Chabad bochurim, the conversations were about the Rebbe if he’s still alive and whether he was/is Mashiach.
I don’t think you’d find Litvaks discussing it on a daily basis.

I obviously cannot speak for anyone else but as for myself, it is the entire Lubavitchers belief system that is dramatic, tragic and fascinating. In my view, so much of Chabad today closely resembles early Christianity and makes me wonder what religion Lubavitchers really practice. It is not a simple machlokes over whether or not you follow shitta a or shitta b but rather a much broader question in my mind whether Lubavitch is even still considered within Machane Yisroel or whether they have formed a new religion. The rebbe question is only the largest symptoms of this and gets the most attention. What makes this harder is the fact that so many Lubavitchers I know do not subscribe to the mainstream Lubavitch views so how can I throw out the entire movement. Also, in my mind, Chabad was so close to perfecting Judiasm before they introduced these crazy ideas I feel like if we can only get back to the way it was we can have a perfect Judiasm. I still go to the Ohel as often as I can. Besach Hakol, i obsess over Lubavitch because it is fascinating, dramatic and tragic at the same time.

minor edit

Menachem

The answer is, is that chabad is a great sect in yiddishkeit and it would be even better if it cut out “the rebbe is moshiach” naarishkeitin so the frum non chabadniks that you meet are trying to make chabad (and in essence the whole religion) better

I am from Litvak misnagid on one side and Yekke on the other.
My shul minysn is completely mixed ( typical in small town America). Lakewood, TV, Brisk, Israeli, Euro-traditional, etc.
My evening chavrusa is Lubavitch, my morning chavrusa learned at Chaim Berlin.
In all the schmoozing that goes on before minyan starts or learning I have never heard the topic of the late Rebbe being the moshiach mentioned.
The Lubavitch who live in town and gave a minyan in their home the past 40 years never bring this up when interacting with other Jews.

One of the predictable results of these discussions is the charge of machlokes, sinas chinam, bigotry, hatefulness or wickedness leveled at anyone who disagrees with what has become normative Chabad orthodoxy. This is a cheap tactic meant to quell any and all discussion regarding the virtues or faults of Chabad. Thank you very much, but nobody has the right to force us to go against the values with which we were raised. Nobody.

Another queer feature concomitant with these threads is the absurd remark made by some along the lines of “So, Chabad holds that their Rebbe is the Moshiach. Big deal. Get over it!” Or how about this one: “The Rebbe knew as much Torah as the Brisker Rov.”

Really? Surely you jest.

But no, they are quite serious. Historical revisionism and logical fallacies are par for the course. Marvel at the zero-sum game they play.

I have longstanding relationships with people in Crown Heights and Morristown and know the average Lubavitcher chassidim to be beautiful Jews. It is for this reason I opt out of most of these threads.

There are others, however, who have invaded established kehillos and executed a hostile takeover of the shul board. One of my late friends, a longtime pulpit rabbi, experienced this. The ordeal drove him to an early grave.

Still and all, most of the time I שוויַיג שטיל. Only when I read something over-the-top regarding MMS or some Chabad activity will I feel it necessary to contribute a salient thought.

On one hand, as mentioned above, people make discuss here issues that they will be uncomfortable to mention in person.

2nd, I have a similar question in reverse: those Chabadnikim who sound reasonably in public – do they also chant moreinu .. when they are surrounded by only their own?

3rd, I would prefer to rather discuss Chabad great work with under-observant Yidden, and how others could join or learn from that, rather than all these shtuyot. I wish other Yidden discuss THAT even when they are not near Chabadnikim, but I rarely see that.

4th, rejection of Chabad by other groups is not based on recent events, it was there when L Rebbe Z’L was alive. Whatever the particulars were, the main basis is not joining the main opinion, same as with others who are not counted.

Menachem,

It’s cute the way Lubavitchers twist themselves into pretzels justifying their long-departed Rebbe as Mashiach, then complain that’s all the Snags want to talk about. If it’s really not such a big deal, please answer the following yes-or-no question, which you have refused to do so far:

Do you consider it within the realm of possibility that someone besides any of the seven Lubavitcher Rebbeim, zt”l will be Mashiach?

I find it fascinating how 300 years since the Baal Shem Tov, some Litvaks still can’t get over Lubavitch.
I grew up in a Litvishe environment yet I have come around to appreciate the Gadlus of the Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ”ל. Honestly, there is nothing like learning a Rashi Sicha, there is nothing like it. There is no Rosh Yeshiva or Rebbe like the Lubavitcher זצ”ל.
Interestingly enough, my first introduction to Likutei Sichos was while I was learning in Ponovezh. Stam L’hoir.

@ AAQ “rejection of Chabad by other groups is not based on recent events, it was there when L Rebbe Z’L was alive”
Totally not the case, when the rebbe sat shiva for his rebbetzin 100s of mainstream chasidisher rebbehs showed up to be menachem ovel.
With the previous Rebbes there was always interaction with Chabad, the problem is 85% of chabad is tzugerkimminer, not chasidim like Reb Mendel Futufas. reb Yoel Kahn etc.

If you have a problem with Lubavitch for reasons of Haskofo, do yourself a favor and make a neder al daas rabim that you will never eat or knowingly benefit from any Lubavitch organization so you will not chas vesholom be nicshal.
For example, if stuck at an airport, or on bushiness in China don’t accept any food from a shliach.
If imprisoned, don’t accept any services from Aleph.
Make sure you dont buy any kosher products which had any ingredients from a Lubavitcher.

@yeshivaguy 45. its not a machlokes, the gemara is just saying “”If Moshiach is from those who are alive now, [then] surely he is Rabbeinu Hakadosh [Rabbi Yehuda HaNassi], who suffers sicknesses and is an absolute saint . . . If he is from those who have already died, [then] he is Daniel, the delightful one, who was condemned to suffer in the lions’ den and was an absolute saint” (rashi)
see the kuntres Shmoi Shel Moshiach
In-depth insights into the sugia of Moshiach min hamaisim from chazal and rishonim
(with haskamos from r’ yitzchok breitowitz, and others)

5ish I am afraid you are not aware of how far outside machane yisroel the lubavitch have fallen. Those few who would permit their children to marry lubavitch are dwindling. Fewer and fewer other yidden would daven in chabad institutions. This is happening across all streams of Judaism. I don’t think I’ve agreed with a single post avira has ever posted on cr but I ageee with everything he wrote here. Crown Heights, we have a problem.

The fascination that some people have with Chabad is that on the one hand they help non frum yidden across the globe come closer to yiddishkeit, and appear to be makpid in shmiras hamitzvos in an uncompromising way. However on the other hand they tend to not learn the same seforim the rest of klal yisroel do, many pray to a being other than the Aibishter, and they try to avoid mixing with other frum yidden in more in town communities. I’m not convinced the younger generations of Chabad have the same devotion to yiddishkeit as the older generation does and I fear all we will be left with is a movement devoted to the Rebbe z’l with Torah and mitzvos falling by the way side.
If you are a chabadnik reading this, I implore you to follow the ways of the Chabad chasidim of pre 1980s, return to the fire of uncompromising shemiras hamitzvos which you were famous for in Russia. Asei lecho Rav, and don’t allow these fringe crack pots to devastate a movement that is one of the jewels of klal yisroel. Please please return, dust yourselves down, and return to your rightful places.

the fact that a major part of Klal Yisroel don’t realize the dangers and pitfalls of accepting Lubavich’s views and thinking that they are a great movement is by and large a matter of Lubavich propaganda, and they are experts at that. It was the Lubavicher rebbe himself who said חזקה לתעמולה שאינה חוזרת ריקם.

Moshe kapoyer: many people who reject modern lubavitch recognize the gadlus is rabbi schneerson. There is no stira.

SACT5,

“In my ignorant open-minded not-so-frum opinion its controversial because if it was an “official” position that the Rebbe is the mashiach it would cause Lubavitch to become a new splinter religion like one of many splinter groups that have their origins in Judaism.”

The belief that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is the Moshiach, assuming it’s the traditional Jewish definition of Moshiach, in of itself would not cause the formation of a new religion. Changing the definition of Moshiach to deify the Lubavitcher Rebbe would, as would any abrogation of Torah and mitzvos.

“The biggest difference between Judaism and Christianity is accepting “you know who” as the messiah.”

It goes way beyond that. They worship him as a god. They conceive of their deity as a trinity. They see the Torah as superseded, and the covenant between the Jewish people and Hashem as abrogated in favor of believers in their deity.

“Between the different groups within Judaism today the major differences are all generally based on religious practices not theology.”

This is generally true when referring to Orthodox Judaism, though there are some minor theological differences at times. The debates in these Chabad threads are largely theological, which may be why they’re so dramatic. When referring to non-Orthodox Jewish movements, however, there are absolutely major theological differences.

“Very recently I realized that Chabad checks all of the boxes I have been looking for so I plan to really explore what they offer. There are limited choices for observant Jewish experiences where I live and I am quite thankful for the opportunities they provide.”

Kol hakavod! May you have much hatzlacha and bracha on your journey.

This topic has been settled. Kuntres Shmoi Shel Moshiach is an in depth analysis on what Chazal said about Moshiach coming from the dead. It’s a free download. It was common belief among Chazal Moshiach could come from the dead and Rambam didn’t rule it out l’halacha. The sefer has litvishe haskamos. See this short video from a noted talmid Chochom: link removed

Gadolhadofi, I can’t speak for Menachem, but as a Lubavitcher chossid I can tell you that, yes, it is in the realm of possibility that someone besides for one of the rabbeim will be moshiach.
But I would like to turn the question over to you- is it in your realm of possibility that the libations rebbe can be moshiach, or do you refuse to answer this straightforward question?

I love it how people are saying it is hypocritical to criticize Chabad but to eat their stuff when you travel. No. That’s not how it works. Just because someone does one nice thing that doesn’t mean you get to get a free pass on something else that is wrong. The problem I have with Chabad is that you look at yourselves as the chosen people within the Chosen People, which is within your rights to do so but it’s just very delusional. Chabad is small compared to other chassidusin plus they had a lot of gedoilim not supporting some things that they did. Satmar and Ger are much bigger and they don’t pretend that their mehalech is the only one…

Also Chabad tolerates even the worst ppl just because they were born Jews. People like Lapid who our gedoilim (like Rav Shteinman ZATZAL) have said Lapid yemach shemo but if you speak like to a lubavitcher he’ll say how DARE you say that on another Jew…

Tolerating evil is tantamount to supporting it, and by refusing to declare the left-wing liberal secular Jews (both here and in EY) as enemies of Klal Yisroel, Chabad has lost its credibility IMO. It’s like bringing in the Trojan horse that opens the door for our enemies to damage us Chas V’Shalom.

Also if you really think Moshiach does not necessarily have to come from the living, why is it not the Baal Shem Tov? Or the Rambam?

Chabad changed so much after gimmel Tammuz… Just look at the matzav of tznius in Crown Heights these days! It’s mamash shocking even to people who grew up there and moved to other Chabad communities (I heard this from a cousin of mine who grew up there).

Credit is due that Chabad did help out to save Russian Jews stay frum and they will obviously get a lot of schar for all that work. But it does not cancel out some other crazy stuff that goes on

741,

I believe you’re the first self-identified Lubavitcher chasid to admit on this forum, “that, yes, it is in the realm of possibility that someone besides for one of the rabbeim will be moshiach”. Menachem appears to be highly allergic to this question.

If it is possible for Mashiach to come from those no longer alive, there are much worthier candidates than the Rebbe that Chabad is still fixated on, a full generation after his passing. Starting with Dovid Hamelech.

edited

For 20 years, I fought against “Jews For J____” (with haskamahs from prominent Orthodox Rabbis) and lots of mesiras nefesh.

The differences between Chabad / Lubavich and “Jews For J____” are much smaller than most people realize, and the number of similarities between Chabad / Lubavich and “Jews For J____” are much more than most people realize.

“I believe you’re the first self-identified Lubavitcher chasid to admit on this forum, “that, yes, it is in the realm of possibility that someone besides for one of the rabbeim will be moshiach””.
I just want to point out that the people that read and contribute to the ywn coffee room is a very niche community and even fewer Lubavitchers that frequent the forum so that doesn’t say much.

741,

I will accept whomever the rest of Klal Yisrael accepts as Mashiach. I do not believe it’s in the realm of possibility that it will be any of the Lubavitcher Rabbeim, zt”l.

Yechi,

Did any Lubavitcher believe that before the rebbe passed away?