Nashim Da'atan Kalos and Women Today

How did a legit halachic discussion devolve into a 3rd grade “you have cooties” fight? Sad.

Men are mashpia and women are mekabel one isn’t greater than the other, they are just different.

what about that frum lady who is a senior person at the NSA. Is she a security risk??

Bruriah, don’t take Joseph, or anyone attacking your response to Joseph, too seriously. Halachic discussion, my foot. Joseph loves “proving” how inferior women are. Do you know anyone searching very old threads and bringing them back to life? Only someone obsessed with a topic can do that. And answering someone with passion will make you as a woman, a “weak emotional woman” but many men can argue pretty passionately and immaturely, but that’s ok since they are men…

Anyway, whatever. It doesn’t matter, one can argue and bring proofs of what “kalos” means, but I take the way Hashem created me with utmost happiness, with the good and the bad, and wouldn’t want to be a male. Thank you Hashem for creating me according to your will!

Syag, you do realize, don’t you, that Obaminator and Joseph are one and the same person?

I didn’t realize. I just assumed it was someone hoping to set him off.
[shrug]

“As long as it’s you saying it. If I say it I’m MO and a Feminist. I mean, why else would I be objecting to this behavior?”
Except that isn’t what you said. You accused him of being freid out and not believing in Torah for bumping a thread that you don’t like. I’m one of the meanest people on this site, and yet I think I can confidently say, I’ve never quite gone that far.

I hate to wake you from dreamland Neville but if you’ll read back what I *actually* wrote, instead of what you juxtaposed on your own initiative, you will find it didn’t say that at all.

Joseph, Nashim Da’atan… “Kalos”?

If you’re going to make this quote your life’s battle cry, it would be more impressive if you got it right.

The gemara in Kiddushin (80b) actually says kalos. You can look it up, and at the same time see the context (after Tisha B’av).

Working is for women the men should all be learning so I think the person asking this question has to ask himself why is he not in Yeshiva why is he just trolling around being scared of girls…. just some thoughts.

👏👏

“….when you got all angry and agitated for no reason other than your not liking to hear of this Chazal. Of course you’re embarrassed to admit that you don’t agree with the Chazal so you instead go after the messenger with nebulous factually lacking tantrums vacant of any argument.”

Thats called an inference.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

Honestly, I have not read any of your posts, if there are any, on the opinion of what nd”k means. Just the mere fact, that I have not been on YWN for a while and come back and what do I see? Joseph posting a comment of only women being scared of bears and bringing up a thread from 2011 about women…again. This is when I have had continuous arguments with you on different threads that supposedly “prove” that men can subjegate their wives, before I took a break from YWN. I would be very surprised that in the interim there were no threads by you “proving” how inferior we are. These are personal attacks from you against women.

As I’ve said before, I, and other women who have chimed in, have no problem with any Chazal, despite your arguing otherwise. This is another attack you make against us women- that since we don’t agree with your and your intentions, we supposedly c”v don’t agree with Chazal.

Please explain to us what your intention is when the vast majority of your threads and comments is about “proving”, according to YOUR VERSION of Yiddishkeit, that women are inferior to men.

“It was pointed out clearly and explicitly that the response came from your timing. You know that because you read it in at least three posts. Here’s the connection again – the problem was not with the holy words of chazal, it was with you DIGGING THRU SIX YEAR OLD THREADS SPECIFICALLY DURING THE NINE DAYS TO CAUSE DERISION.
Period.“

Syag,

Why isn’t what you are doing called an inference too

Nobody has a problem with people digging up interesting or relevant old threads. It’s when digging up old threads in addition to bringing up topics continously for years to try to prove the inferiority of a large segment of klal Yisreol and even if it would be only one frum Jew… kol shekein the mothers of our entire nation! A little respect is in order but trying constantly to prove our inferiority through Tanach, Gemara, meforshim, is absolutely disgusting and nausciating.

Joseph, nobody claims there’s no difference in female vs male daas. However we can argue with your interpretation of daas into the English words “intelligence or cognizance”. Intelligence in my opinion, is individual, not specifically devided by gender. However, even if we are to argue that intelligence, as defined in the English language, is different in men and women because it is processed differently in male and female brain, nobody, including us women, argued otherwise…

Remember women were taught halacha before men after the giving of the Torah….We are not less intelligent, we have different daas and nobody said otherwise.

As I’ve said before, the problem many of us are having is not with Chazal as you are trying to insinuate, in fact, this topic is a fascinating one and it could make for a rather interesting discussion. The problem we have is that you are trying to prove for months, perhaps even years, or for as long as I’ve been on here, is that women are inferior to men. That is a dangerous notion and not based in Judasim at all. We have specific duties as men and women and despite the fact that men are more dominant IN SPECIFIC AREAS according to halacha, it does not indicate superiority or that women are in servitude of men as we have argued previously. That is a dangerous notion to have. It is more in line with Islam…and that’s why their women are more often than not mistreated.

Take a look at the hakdamah of Perush Machzor Vitri on Avos (printed in every Yachin u Boaz Mishnaos).
See there in the hakdomah where the ma’atikai hashmuah (authoritative transmitters of the Torah) are listed. Get to the part where Devorah and Boaz are listed among the ma’atikai ha-Shmuahin of their generation. Next, take a deep breath and look at the shinuy girsot (sourced from the Sefer HaKaneh if I remember correctly) that Devorah received the Torah and transmitted it to Barak. Now meditate on the implications of that.

Syag,

Just that comment specifically and this thread in general brought up a mishpacha article from a few weeks ago that got me very upset

Coffee addict, I don’t remember where I’ve read it, but this is attributed to a tzaddik whom I’ve forgotten his name, who said that women have less mitzvos because they are on a higher spiritual plane.

Regardless where that comes from, I have never read or heard ANY frum person saying that women are better than men, it is just an explanation why women have less mitzvos.

I’m not sure about the Mishpacha article as I’ve not read it, but I highly doubt that they insinuated that women are better than men.

As individuals, male or female , and as a people, we all have strengths and weakness and we were all created with those characteristics so that we can fulfill our potential. We are not better one over the other except for what we make of ourselves. Tzaddikim are higher than simple people because of what they have acheived. That has no bearing to the fact that men are not greater than women or vice versa.

“Coffee addict, I don’t remember where I’ve read it, but this is attributed to a tzaddik whom I’ve forgotten his name, who said that women have less mitzvos because they are on a higher spiritual plane.“

And this is what gets me upset!

That is utter BS!

If that was the case you would have a lot of women that were צדקניות which isn’t the case!

שלמה המלך , the wisest of all people said
“One of a thousand men I have found and even that I haven’t found in women”

They might have less potential energy (or kinetic energy, I was never good in science) which means they won’t fall as far but a man could go higher than a women

And until you show me that he was serious and not to just stop all his girl students from pouncing on him or being depressed I won’t believe it one iota

CA, I’m not sure what your last two paragraphs are about… What does kinetic energy of male and female have to do with spiritual greatness? Am I missing some deep kabbalistic knowledge here? And I’m not sure about the students you are talking about. Seems to me you know who said women are on a higher spiritual plane as they spoke about that in the Mishpacha article and likely named the person who said it. If so, kindly enlighten us who it was.

A man can, in general, go further spiritually than a women because of the limud haTorah that men study while women are generally busy with the household and children. With that being said, one gender is not automatically greater than the other. Again, it depends on what one acheives as an individual.

CA, So Shloime Hemelech found one only good man out of 1,000?! That doesn’t show us that men are generally better than women…If Shloime Hamelech thought women were so bad he wouldn’t have 700 wives and 300 concubines.

philosopher, women are scared of bears? You’re confusing me with Batman or someone. I’ve never made any comments about women and bears. Are you sure you didn’t see that comment on another site?

Regarding your statement that “we can argue with your interpretation of daas”, I answer absolutely! And I’m more than willing to entertain any argument you proffer. But so far you’ve only objected to the mere idea of discussing this Chazal, as it it is somehow verboten to even discuss.

Indeed I’ll take up your offer to have a discussion on the differences between men and women’s intellectual abilities by again asking for your interpretation of Rambam’s statement of “שרוב הנשים אין דעתם מכוונת להתלמד. אלא הן מוציאות דברי תורה לדברי הבאי לפי עניות דעתן.” (“most women have no set mind to be instructed on studies, but, on the contrary, are apt to divert matters of the Torah to nonsensical matters.”)

CA, ok, it’s an interesting point that you are making regarding women having lower spiritual end points but you don’t quote a source so until I see a source I’ll take it as your opinion.

In any case, I don’t think a woman being a nevuah is such a low spiritual point… And people’s highest spiritual point is set high enough for both men and women – our spiritual potential is immensely great and not in any way “low” for women as you claim it is. I’d be overjoyed if I reach my spiritual potential at 120, even if I don’t end up being a tzaddik gemor…as will most men be happy to reach their potential even if most of them WOULD NOT end up tzakkikim gemirim even if they would fulfill their spiritual potential.

As Reb Zusya of Hanipoli said he will be asked in the next world why he’s did not rise to the level of Rav Zusya, not why he wasn’t a Moshe Rabbeinu.

So as far as I’m concerned, we each have our own spiritual destiny, capabilities and potential that doesn’t hinge only on being male or female but on many other factors.

@ philosopher

“we each have our own spiritual destiny”

True that. But, we also have a collective destiny and when the ladies aren’t on board things go on a hand basket ride to warmer climates in a hurry. Contrast the situation in pre Bais Yaacov Europe with post Bais Yaacov America. It is not for nothing that Rav Aaron famously said he would never have been ab;e to build Lakewood Yeshiva w/o Bais Yaaov.

Non Political, your comments are well said and emes.