Nashim Da'atan Kalos and Women Today

I mistakenly pressed a button on my phone while typing my previous message which cleared the message box so I hope my unfinished comment wasn’t submitted by mistake. If it was then this message may be a repeat of my previous one…

Although it feels like personal attacks against me and noshem tzedkunius in general especially because it is so often that we are tried to be proven inferior and I see these comments almost every time I read the threads in the coffee room and sometimes in the news as well, I shouldn’t have taken Joseph’s comments so personally and I feel bad that I attacked him in a personal manner.

Joseph, I hope you will forgive my personal attacks on you (and I also hope you will try to not “prove” constantly that women are inferior…)

Non political
Fly and weasel?

Why?

Klugeryid,… Please read my post on page 2.
I’ll post one last time…. You’re pretending, right?? So let me explain it to you ‘Rochel Bitcha Haktanah.’.
He doesn’t need to comment denigration outright.
As per his MO, he sucker punched …. Regurgitating a topic which knows will offend, during the 9 days…. Right out of the blue… What’s the purpose?…Nobody here is stupid, klugeryid..

Zg
Thanks for your reply. I was serious. I never look at the dates and I thought he was replying to someone else who had just posted.
It’s pretty lame in my opinion anyway but at least it’s an answer.
The thread jumped from July 25 2011to being resurrected on April 3 2013 With no-one commenting on its long hiatus.
Id quicker assume that something in his personal life set him off about. This specific topic than assume he was specifically trying to stoke people in the nine days. Perhaps he was bored. But I doubt it was purposeful in the nine days specifically.

Be that as it may he barely said anything about it. The accusations hurled at him are total conjecture. And much worse “in the nine days ” than his actual comments.
It’s nice that people think they know his agenda. But they may be wrong. Attack ideas not people.
In this case It seems there was very little to attack in the idea department so everyone brought out their old grievences against Josef and let loose.
Pretty disgusting IMHO

If you don’t like what he is claiming here, find out what it means, source it and post it.
If you can’t, then maybe he is right (though In this case he is hardly claiming anything.)
And if you are convinced that he cannot possibly be right even though you can’t source it, well that’s just your gut against his.that surely does not give you a right to level personal attacks

Syag
Because I could not really believe, until zg laid it out (and now I went back and saw that you did too) fully, that the entire attack against him “in the nine days ” is wholly based on conjecture as to why he resurrected it now.
Joseph seems to be the perpetual whipping boy for the more liberal leaning members here, and I personally find it disgusting.
He often makes bare bones points that get under people’s skin because they don’t fit with today’s ” enlightened ” world, and being as there is not enough there to find factual fault with, they report to name calling. Then asking how it got to be a “you have cooties ” fight.
Call him on what he writes, have the courage to agree, or just stay silent.

klugeryid, I didn’t want to go into it as I did ask mechila from Joseph for going at him personally, but I want to point out that if you want to put on your blinders- that’s your decision. We will not be attacked continously about our supposed “inferiority” . If there would be a woman on this thread continously harping for years, hiding behind Torah sources of course, on the inferiority of men, there would also be a time where people would say enough. Opening a thread with the very words “I’m not sure why this makes people uncomfortable…” when Chazal’s words makes no frum person uncomfortable so why would he say that except to deliver his next punch of the Rambam on our “inferiority”. Enough is enough. You wouldn’t want me combing through Torah sources for months and years finding sources on the weakness of men. There is a minimum of respect and decency required – topics can be discussed with intellectual honest and not with an agenda behind it.

I’m not upset at myself for attacking his sick position only it bothers me that I projected two sentences about my opinion of his personal life. Otherwise I have no charata on what I said.

Syag
Correct my comment to read “were it to be so that your don’t like what he actually said then attack his statement. ”
Much worries than “if you don’t like what he said ”
I didn’t mean to imply that you claimed not to like it.
The opposite, I meant that nowhere did you give any basis nor reasoning nor claim to be against what he said, rather just straight personal attacks. Thanks for confirming my contention.
2) guilty as charged
as one of my other post started off, (the one the mods didn’t let through)
“I am not really able to follow this conversation but it seems like it’s just open season on Joseph ”
3) OK
4)maybe not specifically with you, just equally with you
5) I’m not sure either, except the final amount which was a direct answer to your “why ”
It was more at the whole attack group.
Nothing personal.
BTW I think I followed your whole response except (once again)
Care to explain?

Wow, Bruriah, amazing thanks for clearing that up!

And thanks for proving my point that there’s so much in the Torah and Torah sources proving the weakness of men and were anyone to keep harping on this issue just to try to “prove” that men are inferior it would freak anyone out- why is it ok to do so to women on a continuous basis noch dertzi when we don’t learn Gemorah and other Rabbinical sources so we don’t even have the proper answers?

Philosopher and non political,

I’m sorry I haven’t been up to date I’ve been busy

One comment that caught my eye though was about women being neviot

Mind you, bilam, avimelech,and lavan also got nevuah

When I have more time (and a computer) I’ll IY”H comment better

syag
Joseph seems to be the perpetual whipping boy for the more liberal leaning members here, and I personally find it disgusting.
this where i call you liberal?
i dont think you are the totality of the more liberal leaning members here, so at worst i included you in the group.
if you dont think you belong then you are not included,
but i certainly did not directly call you liberal,

kluger – thank you for responding. If you don’t mind an honest response, my take on that same post looked more like this:

you: Joseph seems to be the perpetual whipping boy for the more liberal leaning members here, and I personally find it disgusting.
He often makes bare bones points that get under people’s skin because they don’t fit with today’s ” enlightened ” world, and being as there is not enough there to find factual fault with, they report to name calling.

me: most of your comments have nothing to do with me (referencing your complaint that the whipping comes from liberals and enlightened and calling me out for whipping)

you: maybe not specifically with you, just equally with you

I don’t know if this helps. But it is hard for me to read it any other way. So if it isn’t what you meant, I’m sorry you said it that way. But I appreciate you excluding me in the end. Or at least allowing me to exclude myself.

impressive! I guess it makes sense that you would know me better than I do.

Klugeryid, b’kitzer you sided with Joseph even when you had no clue as to the source and context of this particular Chazal but you agreed with his opinion just so that “these liberal women can be put in place…”

It’s becoming increasingly clear to me that the men supporting Joseph don’t always know the source and certainly not the context of his assertions. It’s just easier to say that women protesting this constant put-down are liberals. How convenient.

* Sorry, I meant to write aggadeta, not aggadah…

Philosopher
I did not side with Joseph
I’m not even sure what his point was.
I just don’t like that fact that he gets called dirty names no matter what he writes.

Yeshivaguy78
While I could not follow you at all, at least your post seemed to have substance. Kudos.

And therefore that fact that the man goes after the women as in the stories you mentioned is not a lack of das In the man over the woman, and similarly the way women are is not inferior to men, just different

So by your own admission you didn’t read the thread, you hadn’t checked the dates, you don’t know what josephs point was but you feel comfortable calling me out by name for doing something the enlightened women usually do even though you hadn’t clarified that it applies to me.

I’ll try to process that without taking it personally. Thanks for clarifying I guess

Syag
No you got it almost all wrong
I read the entire thread
As I said many times, I can’t make heads or tails of it.
I am calling out insulting Joseph for posting a parve post.
I called you out by screen name for a post you made.
Yep is there something wrong with that?

@ Klugeryid

“Yeshivaguy78
While I could not follow you at all, at least your post seemed to have substance. Kudos.”

I did follow the post and to me it came across as a feminist rant.

@ Philosopher et al

My point in contrasting specifically Devorah with other nashim tzedkanyos is this.
1) There is a distinction between intrinsic and incidental traits.

2) If NDK is an incidental trait then it doesn’t necessarily apply to Devorah. It also wouldn’t NECESSARILY apply to most women today, one would have to make an assessment based on whatever concept of NDK one is using. That’s how incidental traits work.

3) If NDK is an intrinsic trait then it applies to all women at all times because it is part of what it is to be a women. That is how intrinsic traits work. It would therefore also apply to Devorah. One would then have to adapt a concept of NDK that would not prevent one with such a trait from being a permanent chain in the link of Torah transmission.

That is also why I did not use prophecy and tzidkus in making my point.

Checkmate.

syag,
maybe the fact that you were #3 just was the straw that broke the camels back
sorry.
as to all of you getting shocked that i gave kudos to a feminist,
read over what i wrote
i have no clue what that poster wrote, the kudos was that it “SEEMED” to proffer opinion/position vs ad hominem attacks. thats all
i did not agree with the writing as i cant as i dont have a clue what the rant meant!!!

klugeryid, you are not sure what his point was but i an others as well are not stupid. His comments don’t bother you because they are not directed at you and don’t try to prove a point about you. Would it be about you you wouldn’t be so passive about Joseph’s commentS.

I guess there’s a lesson to be learned when people are attacked or complimented based on what things SEEM to you, when you aren’t even sure what anyone’s point was. And look what hashkafos got your praise.

I didn’t praise anyone’s hashkafos
I praised their staying away from personal attacks.
Something which many posters here not only can’t do, but can’t even seem to understand.

By the way philosopher, if someone routinely denigrated men in general by pointing out an intrinsic masculine failing, why would it bother me?
Yes it’s true that’s how hashem created men.
Big deal.
It’s got nothing to do with me .
I just suffer with it.
Yes I’m male