Nashim Da'atan Kalos and Women Today

Thank you Obaminator.

It would seem that the answer is yes.

Many women are in professions that require them to keep secrets and they can do it very well, thank you very much. Your assumption is negated by the vast numbers of female doctors, lawyers and nurses, who, by their professional codes of conduct, must conduct themselves with confidientiality. And what about social workers, mediators, Rebbetzins who do counselling, etc, etc.? Even best friends are wonderful secret keepers if requested to – so “lightheadedness” – whatever that is supposed to mean in today’s world – plays no part in the ability for a woman to be discreet.

Where do you get that datan kalos means lightheadedness?

Englishman:

I don’t think the principle means that it is easier to convince women to sin. But that it is easier to convince women altogether.

Derech HaMelech/gavra_at_work:

Why does the Gemorah make this point? What is it trying to convey/teach/alert us to?

I am not going to comment on the question of whether or not it applies today, but it should be clarified that it is not only about persuasion. It is more general than that. For example, the Beis Yosef in the beginning of Hilchos Shechita cites an opinion that women should not shecht because they are more prone to feeling faint at the sight of all the blood and not shecht properly then men, because nashim da’atam kalos. It is an idea that seems to say that women are generally weaker-hearted than men.

LT: I’d like to know a source for that.

Just Emes -“i heard that it obviously is not referring to a woman’s intelligence because they have binah — it rather refers to the ability of women to multi-task more easily than man”

Binah is only a part of a person’s intelligence.

It is some character flaw and it does affect their intelligence. Because sometimes (most times) they let their emotions control their brain.

Daaton kalos means superficial logic.
This is also includes all the other mentioned interpretations.

“I have been taught that Noshim Daatim kalos means that men and women have different levels of concentration“

That goes against the story with bruriah

They say that there are two kinds of people, thinking and feeling. The women are more feeling people.

“Why are some folks uncomfortable acknowledging this Chazal or its truthfulness?”
I suspect there are many reasons that could be offered in response to your question. One that immediately comes to mind is that there are many who purport to quote chazal or bring down inyanim from chazal who manage to distort its meaning and application to the facts of contemporary life. Its not the “truthfulness” of chazal itself but the veracity and “spin” of those who invoke it out of context or apply their own bias or misogyny in its interpretation.

“That goes against the story with bruriah”

But it’s politically more expedient and correct to reinterpret it differently than Chazal, Rishonim and Achronim to better fit the 21st century Western model and sensibilities.

Do it for “kiruv”.

The Gemara said a great many things that does not comport with now-known facts: most well-known is that the sun revolves around the earth, but there are many other examples as well. When confronted with this, one has two options: One, say that the Gemara was wrong, or Two, try to interpret the untrue statements in a way that matches now-known facts. It would be ludicrous, however, to insist that the literal reading is correct and the sun does revolve around the earth.
The same is true here. Nashim Da’tan Kalos cannot mean that the female intelligence is in any way inferior to male intelligence because it simply is not supported; to the contrary, women excel in the fields of medicine, law, and business. So, we have two options, we can say that the Gemara was referring to women in the times of the Talmud who were largely uneducated and were not given the chance to develop their intelligence, or we can interpret that statement in some other way. But it would be ludicrous to give that statement any literal translation.

The way we see it is that the sun is moving. The Magen Avraham says by lighting candles for yom tov אין הכמה לאשה no differentiation between shabbos and yom tov.

“Nashim Da’tan Kalos cannot mean that the female intelligence is in any way inferior to male intelligence because it simply is not supported; “

Blackandwhite,

1) דעת isn’t the same as חכמה you’re talking about חכמה we’re talking about דעת

2) the story with ברוריה disproves you too, so women back then we’re like that (maybe you can say something changed, but if for sure was the מציות back then)

“I heard that a reason why Hashem gave Nashim this characteristic of daton kalos was so that they would be able to accept having more children and not reject the idea because of the memory of their first birth.”

That’s a very cute interpretation but most women don’t forget the pain of pregnancy and birth. They do it because they want more children but not because they forgot what they went through.

These are the words of the Shulchan Aruch:

שולחן ערוך יורה דעה הלכות תלמוד תורה סימן רמו סעיף ו
צוו חז”ל שלא ילמד אדם את בתו תורה, מפני שרוב הנשים אין דעתן מכוונת להתלמד, ומוציאות דברי תורה לדברי הבאי לפי עניות דעתן. אמרו חכמים: כל המלמד את בתו תורה, כאילו מלמדה תיפלות (פי’ דבר עבירה). כה] בד”א בתורה שבע”פ; <ד> אבל תורה שבכתב לא ילמד אותה לכתחלה, ואם מלמדה אינו כמלמדה תיפלות (רמב”ם וסמ”ג ולא כמקצת ספרי הטור).

The Chasam Sofer’s words:

חתם סופר מסכת נדה דף מה עמוד ב
בינה יתירא באשה יותר מבאיש אם הדבר כפשוטו הוא תמוה קצת ומוכחש בחוש והנ”ל בזה ע”ד שאמרו אם אין בינה אין דעת ואם אין דעת אין בינה והמובן מפשוטו הוא כי הבינה הוא העיון החריף ההולך לעיין למרחוק והוא טועה ברוב ע”ד אגב חורפא שבשתא. וע”כ צריך לזה מדה אחרת והוא הדעת ליישב הדברים בלבו ולעיין באחריתם הטובה היא אם רעה

Whats the story with Bruriah?

joseph, i would choose Prof. christine hayes’ daas over yours in a nanosecond.

You have nothing better to do during the Nine Days than troll an old thread last updated six years ago, in the hope of getting people upset? What a shame since you seem to have been behaving yourself for the past few weeks.

Perhaps, if you think it was necessary to give mussar, you could have done it in a nicer way, especially during the nine days.

Perhaps it still warrants behind nice.

Just read this post. I am very impressed. Appears to me me that the writer asking the question here is a woman.

Wow,

Bruriah came up from the grave just to knock joe

🙄

As we’ve been saying all along דעתן קלות doesn’t mean stupid it means emotional