Nashim Da'atan Kalos and Women Today

@ klugeryid

“if someone routinely denigrated men in general by pointing out an intrinsic masculine failing, why would it bother me?”

I suspect a reason it doesn’t bother you is that you are not subjected to behavior and attitudes rooted in discriminatory premises on a regular basis. Maybe if you where you might feel differently.

Coffee
Are you a man?
Cause I am and I’ve been lost in this thread like never before
Just wondering if it’s a masculine deficiency

You crack me up

Are you flipping serious?? Did you really let all that go over your head? PLEASE tell me you are joking!

klugeryid, I’m trying not to get into the personal attack mentality but I could see why I become like that with certain people…You cannot quote out of context Torah verses to prove your own points to denigrate others. It’s against the Torah, it’s a transgression of numerous halachos of adam lachveiro and it’s sheker. If you cannot understand this simple concept then your posting name is your own opinion and not a fact.

Syag,

Was that to me?

Yeshiva guy’s post was too long and couldn’t follow and it sidetracked to that

No, Coffee. It wasnt to you. And yeshivaguy is bruriah and the posts are better left unread.

Philosopher
Firstly my posting name is only my opinion. So you can rest easy on that point
Next
I hear your latest post love and clear. It’s cogent and substantive
Only issue is I started by asking where In this thread does Joseph denigrate women (which would include insinuating that women are inferior to men)
I was taken to task by at least two posters who told me in no uncertain terms that the issue is not that he said anything against women overtly, rather his timing in bringing up this old thread proves his Mysogeny.
Now you are posting, quite clearly I may add, that you SD upset because he is posting for days months and years out of context verses that prove the inferiority of women. And more along the same line.
So I ask my question to you.
What has Joseph posted in this thread about ndk that indicates that his opinion is that women are inferior?
That’s all I’m asking for.

“So I ask you, what I’m his comment causes derision?
That’s what I started with, but you told me you never claimed that.”

no, you actually asked me this:

“Please tell me exactly which comment of Joseph on this thread, denigrate woman?”

and I told you I didn’t claim that because I didn’t.
But it does seem that you use those two questions interchangeably, which I find very odd, and it makes it very hard to respond when you seem to be unclear on what we are actually addressing.

Number two –
“Why are some folks uncomfortable acknowledging this Chazal or its truthfulness?”

If in your truest heart of hearts you believe this post is parve, then let’s just call it a day.

.

Oish… I’m getting so confuse…
RY, care to weigh in on these important, pressing issues? We turn to you for guidance…

The women make a brocho שעשני כרצונו blessing for their existence being the will Hashem to serve their mate.
If he is worthy she is an eizer, otherwise she is kenegdo.

Klugeryid, as I have repeatedly said, it’s not the Chazal or the Ramban he quoted but the intent behind it. When a person is obsessed with finding verses and quoting it out of context so that it loses it’s original meaning, or neglecting meforshim that explain the meaning, or simply quoting verses without knowing the meaning but just trying to continuously to prove a point that other people are inferior THAT is the problem. If a person tries to understand a Chazal or a verse or a meforesh that seems to put down women or men or whatever and he posts that so that people can share their thoughts on the matter then that’s fine. But to do that over and over again against specific individuals is a mean obsession.

I have said mine and that’s that. I hope you understand and if not it’s also nisht geferlich but I won’t try to explain again.

Syag, I sincerely believe it was not with intent to denigrate our Chachomim, c”v but with amateur translation of each of every word with the intent on context it could happen by mistake, not with bad intent. But I may even be wrong and the words could be very accurately be translated, I’m not sure myself. I highly doubt that when learning every word is translated accurately with much thought though and for posting maybe 2-3 words, not even sentences could’ve been changed. But maybe not, it depends if it was extremely accurately or loosely translated…

That is not why you should make it seem as if the Bruriah’s post is so bad that it’s not worth reading…the words of the Mishna is more accurate with her post than other homemade peshutim that people are cooking up.

Philosopher, how is Nashim Daatan Kalos not halachic?

רבי מאיר הוה מתלוצץ בעוברי עבירה יומא חד אידמי ליה שטן כאיתתא בהך גיסא דנהרא לא הוה מברא נקט מצרא וקא עבר
כי מטא פלגא מצרא שבקיה אמר אי לאו דקא מכרזי ברקיעא הזהרו בר’ מאיר ותורתו שויתיה לדמך תרתי מעי

ר’ עקיבא הוה מתלוצץ בעוברי עבירה יומא חד אידמי ליה שטן כאיתתא בריש דיקלא נקטיה לדיקלא וקסליק ואזיל כי מטא לפלגיה דדיקלא שבקיה אמר אי לאו דמכרזי ברקיעא הזהרו ברבי עקיבא ותורתו שויתיה לדמך תרתי מעי
קידושין

what was the point in bringing this up? That men get tested and women don’t?

Philosopher
Yes you said that before
It’s called confirmational bias.
It’s uncalled for to attack him here.
If he really is so egregiously anti women you have plenty of places to judiciously attack him.
My question was what did he write on this thread that was so bad.

Daas Yochid, sorry, I made a mistake. Indeed nd”k does dictate some halachos regarding yichud, shechting and perhaps other halachas I don’t know of.

Non Political, ok maybe I did not see what others are seeing…I don’t know. I also don’t remember her having a feminist rant. My mind is stuffed at this point and I can’t go back to reread the posts again but I’m don’t remember a feminist rant by Bruriah.

As for the teitch, it is true that one cannot learn pshat from an English translation – the translation is just for us to understand the context but maybe the reverence was missing in the post..I was just so excited to see the verse within context as opposed to being thrown around.

I do see our half baked peshatim may be more than half baked. I think your opinion on this issue regarding Devorah Hanoviah is compelling.

And I have also come upon two sources that said Rabbi Avigdor Miller zt”l said that nd”k means that women are more subject to persuasion due to being more emotional as I have suspected and posted that I believe that’s what nd”k means. I think women are more emotional because they are nurturers and get more emotionally involved with people and therefore they may not be neutral in poskening halacha.

Bruriah, honestly I don’t know what to think anymore. I don’t know Loshen Hakodesh that well to translate each word appropriately and it seems that besides for “pretty girls” the translation is accurate. But everyone is angry with your interpretation… Could it be that the translations could have had a more revered tone towards Chazal? I’m not accusing, I’m just asking because besides for “pretty girls” no one has come up with something else. Btw, I very highly doubt Joseph is the moderator. Why? I don’t know for sure but that is my opinion.

I am seeing many interpretations of nd”k in a literal way and as basis of halacha . I found support for my earlier opinion that nd”k means that women get more emotionally invested than men and therefore we would not be good for paskening halacha, with Rabbi Avigdor Miller zt”l, (who incidently I quoted often in different instances) who says the similar in different words, that nd”k means that women are more emotional and therefore easier to be persuaded ( for the good and the bad…)

kluger – how about this idea. 4-5 people have noted this behavior, and even tried explaining it to you but you don’t see it and continue to be all over me to explain it to you. Not explain the problem, but explain it to you in a way that makes *you* like it. So how about if you just accept that you just don’t see it. Even though many others do, you don’t.
So you don’t see it and yet you will dig deep inside yourself to allow others to have their view of something EVEN though you don’t see it. It’s a madraiga.

Fair? Cuz I am kinda done spinning my wheels. And the singling me out for my view but telling me I can’t have it is making me feel kinda cruddy by now.

Oh, and here’s another thing you won’t see but I can bet others will. Joseph thinks this whole thing was awesome and is singing your praises as we speak!!

According to the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch, (152/3)

The din is that one woman can be with 2 “kosher” men during the day, in the city. If she’s in the field, there must be three “kosher” men.
If the men are prutzim (or not Jewish) then a woman is not even allowed to be with many men.
A man can never be alone with 2 women, ever, kosher or not.

I find that most men are in full agreement with the negative male stereotypes (ie. that men are pigs) while most women get offended by negative female stereotypes. However, what I think was bothering most of the women, throughout reading this thread, is not that chazal, at times, may or may not have negative things to say about women. In my opinion, the thing that was really upsetting was the implication that chazal, and therefore Judaism, was denigrating to women as a general rule. When people were quoting chazal and the Gemara, they chose quotes without giving the source for it and therefore making it difficult for others to find out what was really meant. Then, without having learned in depth about the topic, it was implied that we were kofrim if we were not willing to accept the implication, as is.

“I didn’t see any other posts. It was not intentional. – 29“

Interesting, because I know I at least made one post

found and posted them

Women don’t say שעשני אשה because men have more mitzvos than women. They say in the positive because by women it was beneficial for them to be created, whereas by men נח לו לאדם שנברא משלא נברא would have been easier to be born than not to be born. Explains the Meharsha that we would have accomplished more by not being created than being created since there are 365 negative commandments and only 248 positive commandments. Once we were created יפשפש במעשיו, he should scrutinize his actions, through teshuva meahavah where averos turn into mitzvos gaining another 365 positive commandments to 613 or ימשמש במעשיו accentuate his actions, ,through kavono in mitzvos doubling the amount of positive commandments to 496.

Syag, yesterday I told klugeryid I will not be replying to his questions again that we jumped on Joseph for nothing because I realized I was bashing Joseph for days more than my original condemning of this behavior. I originally jumped in when klugeryid kept on bashing you for criticizing Joseph as I felt it was me who really did that. Then I continously explained to him why. But with my continuous “explanations” all I did was bash Jospeh more which made me feel even worse for calling him out- I don’t feel good about bashing anybody and I feel bad about over one remark especially I made to Joseph. I can’t decide if I called out a bully or I’m the bully…but by me continuously stating why I did it, all I’m doing is repeating my bashing…