n0mesorah

Dear Qwerty,

You have a lot of gall. I never intended to insult Rav Moshe. I have a lot more veneration for him and what he achieved than I do for the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Why am I subject to your assumptions of me? Yet you never answer any questions about yourn positions. I have asked you several on this thread. And you never responded. Not once.

It seems like you want to live in a simple, easy world, and are mad at Chabad for making you uncomfortable.

I don’t think that those who were calling Rav Moshe’s home number in middle of the night with threats and curses considered him the Gadol Hador. But who knows? With such crazy folks, anything is possible.

Anonymous,

Yes, mysticism doesn’t change the pshat of anything. That doesn’t refute the mystical experience in the least.

Dear Qwerty,

Chas v’shalom that I would denigrate Rav Moshe! Where did you get that from.

The reaction to Rav Moshe over artificial insemination was very intense. Not because his detractors knew what they were talking about. I don’t understand why everyone is so threatened by Chabad. They weren’t threating Rav Moshe to retract his psakim.

Dear Arso,

Go blame all the other leaders for where their groups ended up. And convince any other group that their shittah is not the correct one.

Need a mirror?

Dear Arso,

I know a first hand account of a RY of a non chassidshe yeshiva who spoke with him about matters on a different continent.

What do you mean that he wasn’t spending time on communal needs? He built the whole Chabad network across continents. He was involved in many non Chabad communal needs.

I don’t know what you are like, but I made an assumption about a different poster. This is how the Rebbe reacted when he was challenged by people who wouldn’t learn.

If all you know about him is the sichos, then what is the issue? That the sichos don’t support what Chabad says today?!? They 2023 Chabadsker teenager is definitely more in line with the sichos than anything else!

Dear Avira,

Now, now. How would that be possible? Is the Chacham just seeing stuff in his head?

Do you realize that you contradicted your earlier posts?

Dear Avira,

I’m not a mekubal at all. I don’t have limits on what seforim I open. The Rashba was against following this person. But about half of his teachings were mainstreamed even before Shabbtai Tzvi. And now we know that the Arizal continued to incorporate these methods even afterwards.

Dear Avram,

Excellent post!

Admittedly, the nonstop Chabad talk is getting to me. Possibly, I chose to vent to you because I know that you will only respond methodically and clearly.

To your point first:

“My points (mostly ignored) have been more focused on where Chabad is forming dividing lines with the rest of frum Jewry.”

This is worth considering. The truth is that all groups do this to some level. It has been taken to extreme recently by all parts of Orthodox Judaism. Some are only knowable from the inside. Some are only visible online. Since Chabad by design is trying to attract the whole world, their claim to exclusivity is much harder to hide. I made this point before. Also, you can find Chabad speakers all over the internet. Other groups are not as public. Maybe you mean something more specific.

I am serious about the min/apikores/kofer/mumar/etc prism. I don’t think it’s so easy to separate from Klal Yisroel while still being fully observant and treating others properly. Especially as a whole group. I don’t see anything abnormal about Chabad. Every group has their thing that makes them different. It is intrinsic to being sub divided into groups.

From your first post:

“…but whether Chabad’s veneration of the Lubavitcher Rebbe is on par with avoda zara or not.”

I don’t even know why anybody would think it is a problem if they have gone through the sugya. If the point is something to do with secular anthropology, I don’t know why that is an issue. There are venerated icon’s in every society.

Back to today’s post:

” Maybe I’m misunderstanding something, but Chabad seems to claim that their teachings bring mysticism from the realm of the esoteric to the reach of every Jew.”

and

“But when faced with any questions or challenges on these supposedly mystical topics (or whether people are misunderstanding them to great risk), they seem to argue that the concepts are just too esoteric and holy for our stunted little Litvish souls to grasp.”

Now, this is a discussion! You don’t seem to have a problem with either point other than the debate here is playing both sides. Am I right about that, or do you have an objection to one or both of these points?

I agree with you that Chabad plays the you can’t know card. Having seen it a bit from the inside, my theory is that it works like this:

Chabad was always mystically inclined. How well it worked in the old world, is not the subject here. When they came to America, they wanted to keep that way. The problem is that they were stepping into the modern world and rationalism was dominating everything else. The solution was to double down and not give an inch. A very Chabad way of reacting to a problem. So Kabbalah which had been in the open in Europe, was now systemized to be taught everywhere. The Rebbe spent four decades advocating kabbalistic ideas and the spread of it’s teachings. Naturally, no area of Jewish thought was out of bounds. Many subjects which are not mundane at all, received much more attention in Chabad than the rest of us were giving it.

Every educator knows that just because you make a deep subject teachable, it doesn’t mean that the students will grasp the deeper concepts. And even those that can repeat the subject matter do not necessarily know the origin of it’s ideas. That is what we are experiencing with Chabad. Those that follow along with the curriculum, can talk endlessly about these concepts and how they work with each other. But they seem to know little in why it has to be this way and not some other way. Their only defense is finding a source in some sichah. Since their knowledge is based on integration as opposed to foundations, they assume we are just lacking in all the confirming information. They do not understand that we are questioning the fundamental concepts.

I have had fun night long bull sessions with many a Chabadsker. Only once did I meet one who seemed more like a conceptual thinker. He really had no interest in the whole united leader, leading us to our destiny concept. Also, Chabad has a massive network. I imagine that those that really know all the mystical stuff are not the ones we are interacting with. Maybe they are as hard to find as a yeshivshe mekubal.

This is my response to Chabad having it both ways. They are trying to spread a simple kabbalah to the whole world. They aren’t questioning what they are taught. (Which group does?) So they claim that everyone can accept it like they do. But without accepting the simple form of it, it can’t be understood without really studying it.

In a line. It is simple to accept, but esoteric in it’s real meaning.

I have been accused of cynicism my whole life. Whatever my virtues, I really fail at tribalism.

PS If I missed the thrust of your post, than instead of a response to me just post your issue with Chabad and I’ll take it from there.

PPS The Chabad topic bores me because it is just a bunch of misunderstandings. Other topics have much more potential for substance from both sides.

Dear Menachem,

The Chassam Sofer wouldn’t apply to your reasoning.

It is a slightly problematic source for the whole Chabad Moshiach Enterprise. Since The majority of Yidden did not align their concept of Moshiach with the shift from Europe to America, than perhaps even Lubavitch is obligated to follow the majority. There are other ways to maintain the faith in the ultimate redemption.

Dear Anonymous,

“There were no mystical attachments.”

Huh?

Did you experience it? Are you claiming to have been there?

What do you think mysticism is?

Dear Arso,

I think you have two issues with Lubavitch. All the details will fall into one of two categories.

1) They/he promote themselves and ignore the rest of us.

2) They/he explains Jewish concepts contrary to the norm.

I don’t know why either one should bother me as an outsider. But anyways, each problem is an answer for the other issue so there isn’t any reason for any Lubavitchers to think you have a point. It comes down to is the beholder Lubavitch. If he is, it all fits. If he is not, than it doesn’t work. So move on.

Dear Sechel,

The Litvaks issue with these things is that these concepts were also learned them before the Baal Shem. They don’t need to readjust everything to fit in that prism.

Dear Jude,

Yet it seems that the Anti Chabad of today hangs on to The Rebbe’s every word in the most literal sense possible!

Dear Avira,

If I am correct than the Meor Ainayim was a contemporary of the Tanya. My question is if you learned the Chassidus from the 19th and 20th centuries that is more like the original. Or did you switch to Rav Tzadok and Sfas Emes like the majority of Polish Yidden.

Dear Coffee,

What you mentioned is about seeing Eliyahu Hanavi in the here and now, not about the future mission as the Herald of Moshiach. The fact that people could see Eliyahu Hanavi in our day, is also evidence that we are not without spiritual ability.

I have something to add to the Rebbe Is Moshiach conversation. Being that you are a renowned poster, I’ll address it to you. Too many here have lost their sense of reason. Who knew that Chabad is contagious?

There has always been a major tension between the Moshiach as portrayed in the Kabbalah and the Moshiach that is discussed in the Gemara. Kabbalah portrays a continuing mission that spans all realms. Halachists only see the man at the end who will fulfil all the conditions of Moshiach. There isn’t any contradiction. Just tension. And that tension is being twisted into this thread.

It is easy enough to go through the topic without being stuck in a contradiction. It seems to me that most posters would rather not resolve the tension.

I’ll post it again for this page.
Maybe somebody on this site wants to learn.

At this point, I do not want to associate my yeshiva background with some of the posters on this thread. To me, it was about learning. Not denying what this one or that one learned. Some people know nothing. Rather they spent their entire time in beis medrash trying to “prove” that the other derech is wrong. It never dawns on them, that you have to learn things different ways to then select the better way. If you always “learn” one way, then you don’t realize that all the proofs you bring are only according to that one way. And someone who learns differently, has no idea why you think you are proving anything.

Nevuah is not a Lubavitch concept. I have no knowledge of what the Rebbe said or wrote on the topic. I do know that the claim that there is absolutely no prophecy in the present day is absurd and is only possible with a very superficial reading of the sources.

I once had the opportunity to learn through the topic with a Talmid Chochom. I’m just going to give the classic sources that have been alluded to here. We are disgracing all ancestors by rabble rousing without learning anything. If we would go back in time, our hashkafa would be meaningless to them. Because the fact that we don’t actually learn, will cast us as laughingstock.

The original beraisa about the the End of the Neviim is in Midrash Chazisa. Note, that it talks about Ruach Hakodesh and not Nevuah.

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14384&st=&pgnum=324

The context is the spiritual lost opportunities of the destruction of the Bais Hamikdash. It is clear in the discourse that these opportunities do not completely disappear.

Based on this, it is included in the Tosefta on Sotah. This is the correct context for where we lost our greatness throughout the generations.

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14307&st=&pgnum=562

However, the Yerushalmi there brings the story as a saying in the name of Reb Yehoshua be Levi. It does not mention the statement that Ruach Hakodesh stopped.

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14142&st=&pgnum=587

It is also brought in Y. A”Z (beginning of ch. 3) on how they were great enough to influence their surroundings.

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14136&st=&pgnum=616

And in Y. Horayos (end of ch. 3) in relation to the greatness of chachomim.

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14136&st=&pgnum=694

The Bavli in Sanhedrin 11a is in the same vein. (Specifically, to the chachomim that deliberated on the months and years.)

https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=24&daf=11&format=pdf

And the Gemara in Yoma 9b is about the opportunities provided by the existence of the Bais Hamikdash and lost in their destruction. This is the closest to the original found in the Midrash.

https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=6&daf=9&format=pdf

In all of these sources, it mentions using Ruach Hakodesh on events that were at the end of; or even after the Second Temple. And well after Neviim Acharonim. Nothing about Nevuah and it clearly was still in use. The concept of using the Bas Kol seems like something they did with some regularity.

The Gemara that calls Chaggai, Zechariah, Malachi, the end of Neviim, clearly mens the last written books. See Rashi.
B”B 14a https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=23&daf=14b&format=pdf

Here the Gemara discusses actual prophecy. The point is that it is still in existence if one cares to look for it.
B”B 12 a & b https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=23&daf=12&format=pdf

People quote the Rambam that there is no more prophecy. It’s a misquote from Yesodei Hatorah 9:2
כְּמוֹ שֶׁאָמַר הָאַחֲרוֹן שֶׁבָּהֶן followed by a pasuk from Malachi. This is the same as the Rashi above. There is more nuance if one learns the whole perek.

Incidentally, they also use the wrong Rambam as a source that Moshiach will be a Navi.
The Rambam in Teshuva 9:2 is explicit:
מִפְּנֵי שֶׁאוֹתוֹ הַמֶּלֶךְ שֶׁיַּעֲמֹד מִזֶּרַע דָּוִד בַּעַל חָכְמָה יִהְיֶה יֶתֶר מִשְּׁלֹמֹה וְנָבִיא גָּדוֹל הוּא קָרוֹב לְמשֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ.

The idea that we preserved these abilities and can still access them is a mainstream one. Everybody should be all in on it.

Here is a famous Divrei Chaim that accepting the Gedolei Yisroel is to realize that they have Ruach Hakodesh. Yoreh Dayah II 105
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=913&st=&pgnum=3

This is getting out of hand.

Nevuah is not a Lubavitch concept. I have no knowledge of what the Rebbe said or wrote on the topic. I do know that the claim that there is absolutely no prophecy in the present day is absurd and is only possible with a very superficial reading of the sources.

I once had the opportunity to learn through the topic with a Talmid Chochom. I’m just going to give the classic sources that have been alluded to here. We are disgracing all ancestors by rabble rousing without learning anything</anything>. If we would go back in time, our hashkafa would be meaningless to them. The fact that we don’t actually learn, will cast us as laughingstock.

The original beraisa about the the End of the Neviim is in Midrash Chazisa. Note, that it talks about Ruach Hakodesh and not Nevuah.

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14384&st=&pgnum=324

The context is the spiritual lost opportunities of the destruction of the Bais Hamikdash. It is clear in the discourse that these opportunities do not completely disappear.

Based on this, it is included in the Tosefta on Sotah. This is the correct context for where we lost our greatness throughout the generations.

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14307&st=&pgnum=562

However, the Yerushalmi there brings the story as a saying in the name of Reb Yehoshua be Levi. It does not mention the statement that Ruach Hakodesh stopped.

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14142&st=&pgnum=587

It is also brought in Y. A”Z (beginning of ch. 3) on how they were great enough to influence their surroundings.

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14136&st=&pgnum=616

And in Y. Horayos (end of ch. 3) in relation to the greatness of chachomim.

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14136&st=&pgnum=694

The Bavli in Sanhedrin 11a is in the same vein. (Specifically, to the chachomim that deliberated on the months and years.)

https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=24&daf=11&format=pdf

And the Gemara in Yoma 9b is about the opportunities provided by the existence of the Bais Hamikdash and lost in their destruction. This is the closest to the original found in the Midrash.

https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=6&daf=9&format=pdf

In all of these sources, it mentions using Ruach Hakodesh on events that were at the end of; or even after the Second Temple. And well after Neviim Acharonim. Nothing about Nevuah and it clearly was still in use. The concept of using the Bas Kol seems like something they did with some regularity.

The Gemara that calls Chaggai, Zechariah, Malachi, the end of Neviim, clearly mens the last written books. See Rashi.
B”B 14a https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=23&daf=14b&format=pdf

Here the Gemara discusses actual prophecy. The point is that it is still in existence if one cares to look for it.
B”B 12 a & b https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=23&daf=12&format=pdf

People quote the Rambam that there is no more prophecy. It’s a misquote from Yesodei Hatorah 9:2
כְּמוֹ שֶׁאָמַר הָאַחֲרוֹן שֶׁבָּהֶן followed by a pasuk from Malachi. This is the same as the Rashi above. There is more nuance if one learns the whole perek.

Incidentally, they also use the wrong Rambam as a source that Moshiach will be a Navi.
The Rambam in Teshuva 9:2 is explicit:
מִפְּנֵי שֶׁאוֹתוֹ הַמֶּלֶךְ שֶׁיַּעֲמֹד מִזֶּרַע דָּוִד בַּעַל חָכְמָה יִהְיֶה יֶתֶר מִשְּׁלֹמֹה וְנָבִיא גָּדוֹל הוּא קָרוֹב לְמשֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ.

The idea that we preserved these abilities and can still access them is a mainstream one. Everybody should be all in on it.

Here is a famous Divrei Chaim that accepting the Gedolei Yisroel is to realize that they have Ruach Hakodesh. Yoreh Dayah II 105
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=913&st=&pgnum=381

Dear Mdd,

Whatever you mean. So show where Chabad has minus than Brisk doesn’t. If you can’t back yourself up, you shouldn’t be calling out others.

Dear Avira,

“but I have no issue with his toras on other matters…i still choose not to learn them regularly because my rebbeim did not hold him to be a gadol byisroel warranting such.”

Does this mean that you learn everyone that your rebbeim hold of their gadlus? I thought it goes by the capabilities of the student. Not the perspective of the master.

Dear Avram,

“.. on par with Avodah Zarah or not.”

A”Z is not the same as minus.

There is no A”Z here because there is no worship other than going to the ohel. Which is no different than going to any other kever.

Saying yechi, even including divine identifactions for the rebbe, is never A”Z. It would only be minus with an overall context of a new order. (Order as in teaching, belief, dogma.)

The easiest way to test the boundaries of klal yisroel is to become a mumar. This can’t be applied to Chabad as they are as observant as the rest of us.

I have pointed this out dozens and dozens of times. Every poster here seems more interested in piling on Chabad for the sillies things, than responding to how they understand these basic concepts. I have come to accept that pettiness is their highest dogma.

Maybe you can forgive me for having the opinion that yidden don’t care at all about what it really means to accept the Kingdom of Hashem. They prattle about it a bit for Rosh Hashana and can’t make sense of it. So they move on to the rest of their year. The individuals who seem to understand it, don’t really discuss it. Maybe this was what Rav Soloveitchik meant when he said that it is something to experience and cannot be taught.

Dear Arso,

You missed the difference. If you understand all the parts of ” there is nothing wrong with davening to a tzaddik because he is atzmus melubash baguf” than you know that it is not at an out of bounds idea.

Dear Qwerty,

I don’t understand the question. The Rebbe knew shas and knew how to learn. It is a contradiction. All of the Ramabam’s seven causes for contradiction can be applied here. And anyways, this is not even his chiddish. Rav Tzadok Hakohen has a long essay saying that we don’t follow this whole sugyah. And every Jew will be redeemed as well as having a share in the world to come.

Here is a better question. I have pointed out that there isn’t any reason for outsiders to be attacking the authenticity of Chabad. Why have you not defended yourself?

Dear Mdd,

Maybe Chabad’s concept of a rebbe is on par with your version of a god. It is not on par with their understanding of Hashem ch”v. You can’t fault Chabad and Chassidus that you don’t have a concept of Atzilus.

Dear Qwerty,

Shortly after I posted that, I realized that I’m wrong on that one. There is a lot of precedent on removing shochtim over even more trivial beliefs.

I don’t know if there can be such a lawsuit. My point remains that they don’t vet every shochet for his take on the ikkarim.

Dear Avirah,

I don’t see where you stated anything against my post. The Torah that is being learned is not one and the same with the mitzva (of Talmud Torah) that is being done.