AviraDeArah

The idea of nevuah in our time is not threatening, it’s just wrong, and a prime example of neo chabad changing the mesorah and general cookiness. Every schmuz that mentioned nevuah that I’ve heard from gedolei yisroel, including those whom I was zocheh to have a relationship with, always have said that we don’t have it nowadays. It’s basic chinuch. So i find it frustrating when people who present themselves as frum lack basic foundations in their Judaism.

Then again, there are foundations more basic to yiddishkeit than this which are up for discussion here, such as corporeality and shituf, so…

Damoshe, this was not a chabad source, rather a hesped on the steipler from a rosh yeshiva in eretz yisroel; but it had absolutely no bearing on the conversation.

Nom, we would kill them if we had a beis din..we don’t, so we can’t. Neviim must perform a neis and make predictions. If they don’t, then they’re chayav misa.

If the rashba said he was false, what makes you think the arizal followed him? Because you  found some overlap? Edited second time. Next time I can just trash the post, it’s much easier.

I still don’t know who this person was, but i think of he were a major historical figure, there’d be more talk of him and i would have heard something. Plus the neo chabads would have quoted him a lot.

It’s obvious where you get your information from; just copy and paste from the dying pseudo academic blogosphere of people who hate mesorah.

Menachem, i try to give people the benefit of the doubt and not assume that they are being deceitful. But what you wrote from that sefer is completely inaccurate and misleading.

The maspid says that in our time, THROUGH THEIR TORAH the gedolim are able to function similarly to neviim and explain world events, and see things deeply like the neviim did with nevuah. In this way, the yesod of nevuah remains in klal yisroel, for it is eternal. But it is not nevuah itself. It’s like how chazal say that a chacham is adif m’navi, because the chacham can access the dvar Hashem whenever he wants, and a Navi only can get it when Hashem talks to him.

Here are some sources which indicate that nevuah has ended.

Meforshim on malachi:

Mahari kara and malbim on 3:22, ibn ezra on the first pasuk, abarbanel also on that pasuk.

Avos D’Rebbe Nosson 47 says it stopped because of certain aveiros.

Radak on chaggai 2:5

pesikta Rabbasi 35

Maharsha on Yoma 9b, says nevuah stoppped because jews didn’t go back to EY when they had the chance.

Seder olam rabba 30 says that nevuah stopped by Alexander the great.

Rav tzadok hakohen in Resisei Laylah, 81b says that nevuah stopped when avodah zara ended, same as the gaon i mentioned above.

Michtav meliyahu chelek 3 pages 277–278

It’s not “what you heard in school”

Most things that are commonly taught in yeshivos are true. Rebbeim know things..there is a mesorah which you seem to want to undermine at every chance you get.

As for sukkah…i have nothing against chabad as a concept. I’ve outlined my reasons for being against divergent elements of neo chabad, some of which you agree with. They present a danger to mesorah and yiddishkeit, and almost the entire yeshiva world recognizes that.

At a certain point it just becomes amusing, like when you hear what the colorful characters who hang out at amnons pizza and similar places have to say

Nom, whose seforim do we have on our bookshelves (or rather, the yeshiva worlds bookshelves; edited) which say that Hashem spoke to them? Are you referring to the giluyim of the Arizal? He learned things from shomayim, from malachim, so did the shulchan aruch; that’s not nevuah.

Rav avigdor miller writes that even the early christians were terrified of using the phrase “ko amar Hashem,” so much so that it does not appear in the new testament. Yet chabad had less fear of that concept than they do!

Re, names and appellations; i was not aware of the baalei tosfos calling each other that. I think it is just a praise – rabbeinu tam never says the words ko amar Hashem, or that Hashem told him something, or that he had a prophetic vision.

Re, the Lubavitcher rebbes “prophecies.” The CIA said that israel would win in “around a week,” which is why the satmar rov said that “if the 6 day war was a miracle, Johnson was a navi!” Maybe the Lubavitcher rebbe overheard someone talking about Israel’s vast air force advantage, etc…who knows.

I love it when gematrios are used as….”proofs” to things in chabad. Want to know how many christian/yushke gematrios there are throughout tanach? The missionaries love this stuff.

Outside of chabad, genatrios were never, ever meant to be a proof to anything. They augment what we know already; they’re hints to things, hence the name remazim. no one ever tried to prove anything with a gematriah before.

770 is also gematriah “bais nachash.” I am in no way saying that the Lubavitcher rebbe was such – i am merely saying that gematrios can potentially be manipulated and skewed to mean anything. But they’re a chelek of Torah for us to see a deeper meaning of things we already know.

Da, that is precisely the gemara in Sanhedrin under discussion; it uses the term ruach hakodesh, but it clearly means nevuah and is thus understood by both its context and the meforshim. It says “after chaggai zecharya and malachi died, batla ruach hakodesh” – they were neviim, not nust baalei ruach hakodesh. Look at the rishonim there.

But you’re right that no one today has the kind kf ruach hakodesh that applies to kesuvim, like mishlei, tehillim, etc… which were written in ruach hakodesh. Our ruach hakodesh means that either our tzadikim are made privy to things in shomayim or that we are mechaven to the amita shel Torah with the holy thoughts Hashem puts in our heads.

Nom…the chozeh of lublin never said “ko amar Hashem,” nor did he say he was a navi. He saw things in ruach hakodesh like tons of others.

You’re trying to make this into semantics. Nevuah is a definite phenomenon. It isn’t poetry like maskilim call it. It isn’t divine inspiration or ruach hakodesh. The rambam is clear about what nevuah is. Now i ask again, has anyone in the past 2000 years said “ko amar Hashem”, or any other such phrase, have they claimed to receive a direct communication from Hashem Himself? No. They have not. You’re trying awfully hard to avoid the idea that nevuah is no longer available today – why is that? Is it affinity for chabad? I don’t know why you’re beijg stubborn on this issue and marshalling unrelated sources, deflecting proofs by whisking away terminology, reframing the discussion into one of baalei mofsim and ruach hakodesh who see what is going on naachurei hapargod

Why not just admit it when someone has a strong taanah? It’s not that hard.

Nom, the gemara in Sanhedrin uses the term ruach hakodesh as well, but it is clearly referring to nevuah, because of the juxtaposition with chaggai zecharya and malachi, who were neviim.

Ruach hakodesh itself was not batul, as the divrei chaim wrote in the teshuva you quoted, so much so that to doubt that gedolei yisroel have ruach hakodesh in every generation is apikorsus, the divrei chaim said.

Nevuah is ko amar Hashem. The words of Hashem communicated to a person. Ruach hakodesh is either what Hashem puts into your head, or being mechaven to the emes in learning.

Your sources have basically no bearing on nevuah – the rishonim on Sanhedrin clearly identify ruach hakodesh as referring to nevuah; this should go without saying.

The gemara also says that once nevuah was lost it was given to katanim and shotim – another proof that it is gone. Bava basra 12a, statement from rebbe yochanan “nevuah was TAKEN from the neviim and given to katanim and shotim”

I forgot to mention that gemara too.

Again – let’s find one case where a tanna, amora, rishon, or acharon calls someone a bonafide navi. You won’t.

Menachem, please provide one person called a navi in a serious context(not the raavads insult of the rambam calling his words divrei nevuah sarcastically) and I’ll take the idea seriously. What we find poskim sometimes doing is euphemisticly calling anotjer gadol’s writings nevuah because they can’t find a source for it in fhazal; the raavad used it sarcastically, they use it respectfully, but it’s clear that that’s their intention.

Find one place where rhe rishonim say “so and so was a navi” or “this person heard the dvar Hashem” or the like – you won’t find it. Anywhere.

As for the mishi….batla….those are discussed. They mean that the highest manifestation of anivus, yirah, etc…are gone. That’s because it’s obvious that one can fear Hashem in any time and place; those gemaras aren’t referring to a specific phenomenon. Nevuah is a phenomenon which chazal are saying no longer happens. The rishonim do not say on that gemara “nevuah isn’t so common now,” it’s been taken as a given by the rishonim and achronim for 2000 years. Universally.

Re, nevuah; let’s also be clear that a nevi sheker, even if he just tells you to keep the Torah, is chayav misah. This is a big deal. It’s not just a hashkofa disagreement. What the Lubavitcher rebbe is saying can land one in an aveirah for which the punishment is death.

I think it’s prudent to abide by the pashtus of chazal and mesorah in such a case..if a yungerman had a chidush about shabbos, if he went and told others to be meikil on a chiyuv misa….i shudder to think of the consequences. These are very serious inyonim.

Re, Gaon; yes he did learn nistar young. So did the ramchal; they were the exception, and were able to do so without being damaged by it. Most people who go into kabalah early or before they’re ready have serious problems. This is an example of the exception proving the rule.

Why do you think thus takanah was made? It was because people were going wonky over kabalah that they learned before being ready. This jncluded shabsai tzvi.

Menachem, i heard it quoted often in yeshiva, notably from a rebbe of mine who was a belzer chossid. I looked around online and found people who have heard it too but similarly can’t find a source for it.

Re, Sanhedrin; nomesorah said that there is no such gemara. I said that there is and cited it – why do you take that as “quoting a random line”?

One poster correctly said that chazal say that nevuah ended by the churban, another said that there is no such gemara, and I said that there is. Has the Lubavitcher rebbe’s novel opinions so defined your way of thinking that you can’t distinguish between chidush and pashtus/the way every other section of klal yisroel thinks? There is literally no other group of jews who think nevuah is a thing in our time…. except some people who are into rabbi kook, i think, who called….. meir kahanah(sic!!!) a navi. But I don’t think that rabbi meant it as literally as the Lubavitcher rebbe anyways.

Nevuah stopped with chaggai zecharya and malachi – Sanhedrin 11a. It means it’s gone. It will return when moshiach comes.

There’s a famous Gaon which says that nevuah was taken to even the “zeh leumas zeh” after the YH for avodah zara was nisbatel through the anshei kenesses hagedolah; he writes it on seder olam perek 30, note 12

Qwert, it seems that you are caught in a state where if someone is wrong about some things, they have no valuable things to offer and they can’t be right about certain details or inyonim. The chazir thing has zero to do with chabad, as it’s in chazal; you will get a lot more respect and people will listen to you if you just admit when you’re wrong or misinformed about something – i believe it’s ridiculous to think that the Lubavitcher rebbe, or any other person who is not alive(or alive, since no one has accomplished the criteria yet) to be moshiach, but that doesn’t have anything to do with the chazir being kosher when moshiach in fact comes.

Lubavitchers, to their credit, have not changed halacha to match lost-moshiach times, at least not yet. They don’t bring karbonos, or do anything else that we need to wait for moshiach to allow, and that includes eating chazir – the fact that its siman hasn’t changed is obvious. Now will their movement go full shabsai tzvi and change halacha, like saying shem hameforash? Who knows. I’m just relaying what the facts on the ground are at this time.

It’s my personal opinion that chabad will soon splinter into two groups; those who accept both messianic and elohistic teachings, and those who go back to old school chasidus, brushing off god-in-a-body as just something they don’t understand, and taking the rest of their rebbes teachings, 99% of which are not problematic in yiddishkeit.

But above all, keep it civil; no one’s changing their mind from ranting. The same way Lubavitchers who go on and on about how misguided and inferior they think litvaks are doesn’t change a
– and only strengthens – how we think

This was a machlokes between chasidishe rebbes early on. The baal hatanya was against it, but relented after many chasidim begged for it. Others advocated it outright.

As a source, the mishnah says that when one learns Torah properly, they have “ruach aitzah,” a spirit of advice.

Chazal also talk about how to invest money; putting a third in movable property, etc… So if chazal are giving you advice on how to be successful in business, it seems that this is something in the purview of a tzadik/rebbe/rosh Yeshiva

But everyone agrees on the importance of having a rebbe for life decisions, such as when and how to go to work, college, shiduchim, etc..

Qwert, i believe it’s an arizall or a zohar that writes that the chazir will chew its cud when moshiach comes. The Torah doesn’t change cv”s, it’s the chazir that changes into a kosher animal.

Ujm, there is at least one posek(who happened to be chasidishe) who held that messianic Lubavitchers are apikorsim; that’s Rav menasheh klein, as i mentioned above.

But I haven’t heard anyone else say that. Everyone else I’ve heard from just thinks they’re meshugoim.

But the messianism is nothing compared to the deification issue, and it’s only getting worse.

Nom, that’s not true. Chazal talk about toras eretz yisroel in several places, aside from the mitzvos (and averos) that occur there being on a higher level in general.

That being said, some learn better in chutz laaretz, including myself; there are fewer distractions here, less drama, easier to get by financially, etc… nothing about the land itself, just the current lifestyle that is necessary there at this time isn’t for everyone.

Ujm, rav moshe held that a secular will is fully valid in halacha; even the RCA beis din does not follow this psak.

Sechel, what rabbonim outside of chabad believed that the Lubavitcher rebbe was anything close to being close to being chezkas moshiach? He did nothing mentioned in the list there, sxcept being hogeh batorah…in which case, rav shach was just as bechezkas as the Lubavitcher rebbe; actually, moreso, because he brought about more learning, spent more time being hogeh, and….his name was Menachem too!

Sechel, that’s not how psak works.

Jews in America are not beholden to poskim elsewhere; American poskim allowed it because rav moshe allowed it. It became accepted as the minhag haolam, and that is perfectly fine when someone who is accepted as the gadol hador issues a psak and is not challenged by many other gedolim in his country.

Most American jews accepted rav moshe as their rebbe in general, and there are very few psakim from rav moshe that aren’t followed, such as music, yerushos, and Shabbos timers (that’s about the extent of the list)

Neville, trimmers are much less controversial, because the blades aren’t sharp, and they’re designed to leave a drop of hair, because the top guide row is a little bit above the bottom, moving cutters.

As it happens to be, i once bought a very cheap trimmer with the top and bottom being on equal level, and rav belsky told me it was assur to use when i showed it to him

Neville, it’s important to understand that without daf yomi, many people wouldn’t learn at all. Roshei yeshiva aren’t going to blast something which is flawed but gets people to learn, because it’s not as if they’re going to drop it and leatn sugyos biyun slowly, covering maybe an amud a week due to their work schedules.

Also, a large amount of baalei batim simply lack the ability to learn sugyos biyun. Many can and do, as kolel yungeleit transition to the working world.