qwerty613

To n0mesorah

When you admit that what you wrote about Rav Moshe was slanderous and you publicly apologize, I’ll respond to your challenges. You don’t have to remind me that I haven’t answered. It’s totally intentional and it’s because you’ve behaved like a boor.

To n0mesorah
You’re denying that you insulted Rav Moshe? You stated that there was a global campaign to discredit him. Your intention was to make it seem as if all the Rabbis in the world were renouncing him. Anyone reading that post would come to that conclusion. Now you clarify your statement. Sure there were Poskim who disagreed with his position but everyone accepted him as the Gadol Hador. Now the reason you implied otherwise is because I said that he could have tested the Rebbe as a Novi and you needed to find some way to reject that idea. Have you no shame? That’s a rhetorical question?

Let’s take a step back. What we can discern from this and similar threads is that Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach and that he is(was) a Novi. Not long ago England crowned a new king. The event was witnessed by hundreds of millions throughout the world. Chabad is telling us that the Rebbe was anointed Moshiach, essentially making him king of the entire world, but no one knows about it. There’s not even a YouTube clip. And as for his being a Novi, one of the posters said this was proven during the 6 Day War. At that time Rav Moshe was the unquestioned Gadol Hador. All that was needed was for the two to meet and Rav Moshe would have tested him. As Avira correctly stated, Nevuah is definable, it’s not voodoo. Chabad wants us to trust them at their word. No chance. We are a stiffnecked people. Finally, how ridiculous is it to suggest that the Rebbe understood Pshatim in the Gemara that no one in the last 2000 years knew?

To Menachem Shmei

Thanks for your latest submission because now I comprehend your position. For 2,000 years Klal Yisroel believed the simple Pshat that Nevuah ended during Bayis Sheini. No Tanna, Amora, Gaon, Rishon or Acharon challenged this. Then the Rebbe tells the world that no one understood Pshat until he came along because, in fact, Nevuah still exists. For 2,000 years people learned the Gemara which said that just as only 2 of 600,000 Jews left Egypt and came to Israel, so too only 2 out of 600,000 Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach. No one ever questioned this until the Rebbhe decided that he knew the real Pshat and all Jews will be redeemed. Chabad calls the Rebbe the Moshe Rabbeinu Hador. Moshe’s most distinguished trait was humility. What Chutzpah for anyone to suggest that he knows more than all the Tzaddikim who came before him.

To Avira
I really don’t want to argue with you because it’s clear that our Hashkahahs are closely aligned. This said you spent the better part of yesterday challenging my statements against the Rebbe. Now you’re basically repeating what I said. Please clarify your position. As I’ve made it clear my issues are with Chabad AND the Rebbe.

To mdd1

The only thing Lubavichers want to do in these threads is to keep us off balance because they can’t deal with the truthful, logical arguments we present. I think you’re doing a great job, so keep it up. The only advice I’d offer is that you ignore everything the Lubavichers say and keep pounding away at them. You can’t change them because the Rebbe is their god, but hopefully, some people who haven’t yet seen the light will change their tune when they see the evidence.

To Avira

I have no intention of trying to guess what will happen to Chabad but you’re certainly free to speculate. As for the Chair issue, it’s much ado about nothing. I just used it as a red herring to demonstrate the fallacy of Chabad theology. Again, according to Chabad pigs will be kosher when Moshiach comes so how can they say that the Rebbe is Moshiach? It’s simple logic. All I’m doing, along with some terrific posters, is pointing out some of the flaws in Chabad’s belief system as well as issues that must be raised about the Rebbe. Do I agree that the Rebbe was a supergenius? Absolutely. And his worldwide Shluchim movement is tremendous. Moreover, his explanations of Rashi are extraordinary. So I’m not writing him off by any means. But at the same time anyone who rejects any word of the Torah, be it Oral or Written must be taken to task. And I’m not interested in his proofs, just as I wouldn’t be interested if Rabbi Sacks ZL objected to, say slavery, and wrote the most incredible thesis(of course he’d never do such a thing). But the Rebbe did. Avira, we’re not that far apart. Admittedly I turn people off because I sound cocky. It’s the fact that I know I’m telling the truth that emboldens me.

To ARso and mdd1

Are you really just struggling with the concept of nasty and rude? Or can you just not help yourself?

To Avira
I appreciate your comment but I really don’t think I said anything that crossed the line, no name-calling, etc. Anyway, what they did post this morning is basically what was rejected last night. <yes, what was rejected-minus everything else.>

The point is simple, Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe is empowered to change the Torah as he sees fit. Hopefully, n0mesorah will accept that as proof that Chabad stands apart from other Chassidic sects.

To CR

I’ve sent a number of submissions in the last two days but they haven’t been posted. Instead, you’ve only posted from Lubavichers. Seems unfair. Especially since I’m responding to challenges.

Posta have been both deleted and approved from “both sides of the aisle”. Nasty personal attacks and overall mean-spirited personal comments are deleted. This is just a partial list of suggestions.

To Seichel83

Dr. Berger wrote in his book that eight prominent Chabad Rabbis averred that the Rebbe was “G-d clothed in human form.” A few years ago, David Lichtenstein, a Chabad lover, interviewed Dr. Berger on his radio show. Lichtenstein didn’t challenge Dr. Berger’s contention, rather he said that you can’t judge the entire movement because of a few nut job Rabbis. I don’t know what percentage of Chabad believes this insanity but don’t try denying that it doesn’t exist. By the way Edited

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

To Nomesorah

Thanks for clarifying your position and I’ll gladly respond. You’re arguing that Lubavichers are like all other Chassidim in that they attribute godlike qualities to their Rebbe. That’s disingenuous. No Chassidic sect claims that their Rebbe is Moshiach, that their Rebbe is/was a Novi, that their Rebbe is still alive despite the fact that he was interred almost thirty years ago. As for why we should be troubled by their questionable beliefs and practices that’s simple. They proselytize. The Rabbi of the YI in my community is Chabad. I attended that shul about twenty years ago. This Rabbi constantly mocked non-Chabad Rabbis including the Chafetz Chaim, Vilna Gaon, and Rav Aharon Kotler. I will quote that Rabbi, “The Rebbe is the reason the world was created.” Now I know that Nomesorah will posit that he’s a lone wolf, but that’s nonsense. Rabbi Butman clearly articulated the belief in some, but not all Chabad circles, “When the Besht arrived, Gemara-based Judaism became null and void, and when the Baal Hatanya arrived all other Chassidim became irrelevant. Houston we have a problem no we have two problems. The second is that someone like you who’s clearly bright can’t or doesn’t want to accept the obvious truth. It seems that you’re simply a contrarian.

To Nomesorah

I’m glad you clarified that you’re not Chabad, As for your insinuation that I am equating Chabad with Christianity. I never made such a statement. What I did say is that Lubavichers treat the Rebbe like a god. They attribute powers to him as if he’s different than anyone who’s ever lived. I don’t think that any rational person would challenge that position.

To Nomesorah

I’m confused. You told Sechel that you’re not convinced that the Rebbe is Moshiach and then added that you wouldn’t debate a Chabadsker online vis a vis Chassidus and Kabbalah. This would imply that you’re not Lubavitch. On the other hand, you vehemently reject the implications that Chabad is akin to Christianity. This is generally the position of a Lubavicher. Would you be kind enough to clarify who and what you stand for? If you’re just a contrarian then that’s okay, as that forces people to make clear-cut and accurate statements. By the way point number two to Seichel was spot on. When Moshiach actually comes there will be a sea change in the world. Everyone will be aware of it. Seichel posits that there’s a secret society and they alone know that the Rebbe is Moshiach. Where does that come from?

To Menachem Shmei

Based on your postings, I’d consider you a Chabad moderate as compared, at least, to someone like sechel83. Since you started this thread I assume you’re still following it. I therefore ask you or any other Lubaviuchers who consider themselves reasonable to comment on Sechel’s explanation of why he believes that the Rebbe “IS” Moshiach.

To Seichel83

We’re still waiting for your answer. You acknowledged in a different thread that Rambam’s criteria for Moshiach have not been met. How then can Lubavichers declare that the Rebbe is Moshiach?

To Seichel83

“I will definitely accept the biggest Misnaged as Moshiach if he does all the things that Rambam says Moshiach will do.” The Diyuk is that you and your fellow Lubavichers have already accepted the Rebbe as Moshiach even though he hasn’t done anything that Rambam said he would do.

To Nomesora

Let’s get the facts straight. Coffee addict asked if Lubavichers think the Rebbe is/was perfect and if Moshiach will be perfect. The implication of perfection is that he will be unlike any human who has ever lived, because, as 2scents said(according to Rabbi Miller) even Moshe Rabbeinu “sinned.” I then told Coffee addict that no Lubavicher will answer his question and, true to form, Seichel83 changed the narrative by referring to the Rebbe as a Tzaddik Gomur which has nothing to do with infallibility. So feel free to dodge any question you want, but at 120 you’ll have to answer them. Finally, mddi is absolutely correct, beliefs that are antithetical to the Torah place one outside the realm of Torah Judaism.

To coffee addict
First let me say to you and 2scents, I’m really jealous of your cool handles. Just kidding. To your point. There’s a Klal Godol, no Lubavicher will ever respond to any question raised by someone they perceive as an opponent(snag.) I learned that when I posted on VIN. They assume we’re trying to trap them(in a sense we are, ie we want them to admit that their theology is a lie.) They feel that the safest play is to ignore the questions and they’ll disappear.

To 2scents
Thanks for that tidbit. I’m quite familiar with Rabbi Miller’s teachings as I spent thirty years in the yeshiva of his Talmud muvhak. It’s interesting that Rabbi Miller was a fan of Chabad and the Rebbe but I think he wasn’t aware of their more outlandish doctrines.

To Neville

I think I’m going to follow your lead. You’re absolutely right that it’s checkmate because every Lubavicher believes that the Rebbe is, or will be Moshiach, and they do so based on no real evidence.

To ujm.

Then, by all means, explain it to me, since he obviously refuses to do so.

To Shalom-al-Israel

I’ve found nothing objectionable in anything square root said. Present examples instead of making a blanket, random accusation. If a line was crossed I’ll acknowledge it.

The only certainty is that if he’s not the Rebbe, Chabad won’t accept him.

To Jude

I didn’t say that Lubavich was the first to do Kiruv. I simply asked Neville CB to elaborate on his statement that Kiruv originated from the Yeshivah world. As for your statement that Chabad disavows those BT’s who choose mainstream Judaism you’re absolutely right as this story will demonstrate. About ten years ago an old man in the shul I was attending passed away on a Friday. On Shabbos, I saw a nonobservant friend talking on the phone with the deceased’s daughter helping her make the funeral arrangements. Sunday night I came to that Shul and was told that I missed a beautiful service since the deceased’s grandson spoke and he was a Rabbi. I was baffled so I spoke to the Shul’s Chabad Rabbi. He explained that the Niftar had two daughters, one the Mechallel Shabbos, and the other who had become frum through Chabad. The Chabad couple sent their son to YU where he got Smicha. I told the Rabbi how wonderful that was and he gave me a dirty look and then he mumbled something under his breath. I immediately understood his intent. As far as he was concerned the Chabad couple should sit shivah for their son for abandoning their faith.

To Neville Chaim Berlin

You stated that the BT movement came out of the Yeshiva world. Would you be so kind as to elucidate? I was in a Young Israel some years back that was headed by a Chabad Rabbi. He said the following, “The Rebbe invented Kiruv. When he started all the Rosh Yeshivos attacked him saying it was Bitul Torah. But when they saw he was successful they tried to copy him.”