Neville Chaim Berlin

“The problem with Jews for J is what he did by leaving.”

What does this even mean? Left what? He never stopped identifying as a Jew. Christianity wasn’t spread to the goyim until Paul. It started out as a sect within Judaism that was considered heretical. Were you under the impression that chazal added the birkas haminim to refer only to non-Jewish religions?

How people self-identify is completely meaningless. The Essenes, Tzadokim, Early Christians all identified as Jews (and halachically were). Ironically, the only group who’s name implies an act of leaving or separating was the Perushim.

“I think you misunderstood my position.”

Would you eat the food of a polytheist who still identifies and acts as Jewish? Your opinion seems to be that unless there is some official “leaving Judaism” ceremony, then everyone is still considered fine.

“More than that. We are allowed to ignore their opinions. Especially if it absurd.”

This is in direct contradiction to what you say earlier in the post. If he makes his beliefs public like in the case of Jews for J, it’s an issue that you can’t just ignore. If you’re dining at someone’s table for a Shabbos meal, and he admits “I actually believe there are 5 gods and 3 goddesses that created the world,” you can’t just label that as “absurd” and continue eating his food a pretending he’s acceptable in the frum world.

I’m not answering your questions about Chabad, as I stated earlier I don’t want to be a part of the Chabad war on this thread anymore. What you’re implying at face value has the potential to be far more problematic than anything Chabad does or believes. However, you only seem to apply to Chabad exclusively and no other group or belief-system.

“I have never been shy about this topic and nobody felt required to stop me at all costs.”

I’ve had people say insanely kefiradik stuff around me in-person, and I don’t stop them either, but right now you’re on the internet, so you get to hear what all those people who “didn’t try to stop you” actually think of your shittos.

“Regarding the Nusach haGra, most people don’t follow it.”

I know, but that’s not the point. My point was that you were being critical of the changes made by the Baal Hatanya, but would be unwilling to criticize those made by the Gra.

“It clearly shows what his Mesorah was for the changes.”

It shows reasoning, not mesora. He removed the “baruch hashem l’olam amein v’amein” by maariv for halachic reasoning of not being mafsik between geula and tefilla (same reason as the Baal Hatanya). Neither of them did it because they had a long-standing mesora to do so.

It seems like poskim in Lita were just more willing to “correct” the mesora. It doesn’t seem like it has anything to do with Chassidus.

“this is how most roshei yeshiva speak when talking to non-baalei batim.”

So they’re either pretending while talking to balhabatim or while talking to students. Don’t you think it might be more likely that someone would be doing a little more acting when interacting with students than they would be when interacting with mature, working adults?

“If you really go into the sticks down south”
I have.

“you would see what real hatred is.”
Not really. Pre-2016, it truly wasn’t a big issue. In NYC, however, there has always been a massive amount of Antisemitism that people seem to just tolerate. You’re much more likely to see “real hatred” there than anywhere else.

“I thought the point of these surveys are to understand the makeup of Jewish Communities. As in what the people are actually like. Not what the definitions are. I feel lost on this thread.”

If a poll was designed to give you insights on the Black community, but 50% of the people they polled were just White people who choose to identify as Black, would that really be very educational? I get it, a secular institution will consider someone Jewish if there paternal grandfather was, but if they’re going to ask about intermarriage anyway, it seems like they could have asked responders which of there parents was Jewish so that we could end up with a statistic like “blank % of American Jews have non-Jewish mothers” to put it in perspective. Otherwise, we’re just guessing here and the results seem kind of meaningless.

SACT5:
Thanks for looking into it. Given that all the “not in top ten” cities are in the midwest, if you add them to Chicago, it massively beats out the South and gets very close to the west. I can believe that the west beats out the midwest, just not by as much as this poll claimed.

“The Litvishe Mesorah does not go back thousands of years.”

The Ashkenazi mesora does. As I’ve pointed out before, nobody other than wikipedia editors actually mean “Lithuanian” when they say Litvish; it just means non-Chassidishe Ashkenaz.

“But the more we go back through the last millenium, the more we find even larger differences among the European Congregations.”

This is an important point. Many of the differences between what we consider nusach Ashkenaz and Sphard were just pre-existing differences in Europe. Eg. saying “sim shalom” not “shalom rav” is brought down by Ashkenazi poskim, the placement of shir shel yom before aleinu, the inclusion of “Hashem melech” in psukei d’zimra. The only major chiddushim were changing the nusach of kedusha, and placing baruch sheamar in the middle rather than the beginning. Most of the other things have a basis in some version of the Ashkenazi mesora.

All this being said, I think I still agree with DaMoshe’s underlying point: just because there were divergences between towns in Europe doesn’t mean people can just go and start inventing their own minhagim based on sectarian hashkafa. The minhagim that people have criticized on these forums are exactly that.

The poll honestly just feel extremely inaccurate, and I’m guessing the biggest cause for the faulty proportions is them included tons of non-Jews as others have pointed out.

Only 10% of Jews live in the midwest? The region which includes Cleveland, Chicago, Milwaukee, Detroit, Columbus, Cincinnati, etc. There’s no way it has less than half of the “west” which is basically just LA and San Francisco, or the “south” which is basically just Florida.

If 75% of non-Orthodox Jews marry goyim, then at least half of those are producing non-Jewish kids. The proportions of non-Orthodox young people are being massively overestimated.

“Hafotzas hamaayonos (spreading chassidic teachings) was always a key element in Chabad.”

The story in question involves another chassidishe community. This has nothing to do with “spreading chassidic teachings.” This is about spreading Chabad. The accusation of proselytizing is accurate, but the reaction was obviously unjust. Nonetheless, surely you can understand why people would take issue.

“Why would any Lubavitcher deny this?”

Probably in the course of when they’re pretending to respect other communities and deny the fact that their goal is to make everyone Lubavitch. I do genuinely appreciate the fact that you aren’t trying to conceal it like most seem to do.

I think I’m going to step away from this thread. People seem to say the quiet parts out loud on these forums now (just like the YU threads where MO posters were opening condoning homosexuality). The Chabad side immediately and clearly made their stance, so there’s nothing left to discuss. I assume when qwerty says he can “checkmate” Lubavitchers, he means ask questions that will force them to admit to being meshichists, but they’ve already done that about a thousand posts ago, so he’s late to the game.

Menachem, you seem like a perfectly fine guy. Sincerely sorry if I said anything over the line.

“This is the true story.”
Yet there is seemingly no record of it. I’m not saying you’re in the wrong, but I’ve looked into this before and can’t find a reliable account.

“Menachem, that was not the story as I heard it from Korf’s son…”
The mere fact that this is being passed around like a Chassidishe Maaseh rather than having official police records is in itself fishy. This thread is actually the first time I’ve seen people defend either side. Usually Lubavitchers admit that other frum communities are off-limits for proselytizing, and the other side usually admits the reaction was disproportionate.

“I don’t know why you think that random Chabadtzkers owe us some official declarations.”
They can’t complain about us accusing them of having controversial beliefs then also refuse to deny those beliefs.

“If you know what crazy is then you understand the reference.”
We consider all meshichists to be crazy, so we’re trying to understand why Menachem draws the line at a seemingly arbitrary point. It’s a totally legitimate question, and he still hasn’t clarified. It’s essentially the same as Avram’s question of why should they need to conceal the belief. Also unanswered.

“I’ve found Menachem’s explanation about the Israelis quite clear. I don’t see anything else he could add to what he already explained.”

He could explain why it’s suddenly considered crazy to go around screaming that the Rebbe is moshiach when he himself admits to holding that belief as well. Why is it considered a chiyuv in Chabad to go out of one’s way to conceal what might be the most integral belief in their philosophy, to the point that anyone who publicizes it is considered “crazy?”

I’m confused, does the court in Israel have the power to create new laws, or is it just like America where they just strike down laws? My instinct as someone who likes freedom is that it should be as difficult as possible to make news laws, so I’m confused as to why people (especially what appears to be the conservative side) would oppose a strong judicial branch.

“However, he said that if there were pants that were completely tznius, it would not be a problem for a woman to wear them.”

Nobody actually seems to posken this way; I think your rav was probably talking in a purely academic sense. Pants do exist that cover everything they need to and are very loose-fitting, but there’s still a das yehudis issue (not a beged ish issue).

“My standards don’t change according to party affiliation”

Pfft, you can’t be serious. If Trump had even half of these accusations with one third the evidence you would be calling for him to be publicly beheaded.

Liberals were frolicking with joy when these so-called “lowlifes” made accusations about Trump. Now that you all have hindsight you want to act like you never trusted them, but I don’t buy that for a second.

I’ve also noticed that when I accidentally catch a glimpse of the dumpster fire that is the home page before I quickly click on the “Coffee Room” button in the upper right to save my eternal soul.

Calling them anarchists makes them sound way cooler than they actually are. When I first noticed a headline use it, I thought there was actually a real anarchist movement in Israel, and I was like “woah sweet!” But, then it was just disappointingly about boring-old, government-loving liberals.

“Is it the Ashkenazi mesorah for over 200 years ago to shave their beards?”

Yes, trimming beards is the long-standing halacha. We have the technology to trim extremely close today; if they’d had the ability 1000 years ago, they would have used it too.

“While DeSantis has already alienated the populist wing”

He never did anything to isolate Trump’s base; Trump just ordered his followers to hate DeSantis and they did so. He’ll do the same thing with the other names you mention once they’re also threats.

If anything, it seems like DeSantis is isolating all the sane people by pandering to the populists lately.

“after 4 years, Trump only build 54 miles of wall, and where was Mexico paying for that”

And all of that wall was where there was already pre-existing fence, so Trump didn’t actually add an inch. He replaced some fence with steel slats which don’t functionally seem much better. All just smoke and mirrors that unfortunately a big chunk of his base continues to fall for.

In any case, if Christie’s only qualification is pointing out Trumps failures, there should be plenty of other candidates similarly qualified and without any past scandals.

“Why shouldn’t the plaintiff who filed a baseless and frivolous lawsuit”

Because there’s no objective definition of “frivolous and baseless” and it could lead to the little guy who can’t afford a fancy lawyer getting victimized twice.

Menachem:

I hear your point, but the tone still comes off as defensive when you say “so what?” (albeit understandably so). The issue that people keep driving at is that if you really have such a problem with these sub-groups, why are you so unwilling to directly criticize them? You saw on this thread how willing Avram and I were to criticize another Yeshivish person who was claiming that elitism is okay. The view on various Chabad sub-groups does not seem to include any disapproval. What seems to be the mainstream approach would be to say “we believe moshiach can come from the dead, others believe the Rebbe is literally still alive in the flesh and can never die; both are legitimate shittos in Chabad.” Am I wrong about this?

“I responded that no one denies that there are many Lubavitchers with these beliefs that you mentioned.”

I would challenge this. There’s very clearly a concentrated effort to hide Chabad’s beliefs about the Rebbe from the masses. The topic is meticulously censored from Chabad dot org, shluchim clearly have a policy of staying away from it, etc. Maybe it’s not so much “denying” the beliefs so much as concealing.

Avram:

“if indeed the mainstream majority of Chabad thinks these “crazies” are wrong, and even falling into avoda zara”

The simplest explanation is that they don’t hold it’s wrong and certainly don’t hold it’s avoda zara. They’re just embarrassed at how flashy some people are with it.

As far as the Rebbe picture thing, part of my point was that Yserbius could have just seen it in a Chabadnik davening in the living room situation. I felt it was necessary to mention the practice of putting a picture of him on every wall, otherwise it sounded like he was accusing them of putting it davka on the eastern wall.

“Menachem Shmei didn’t “admit” to having these beliefs”

Untrue. He admitted on one of these threads to the belief that Moshiach will be the Rebbe. He [seemingly] defended those who believe the Rebbe is alive at the front of 770 after another poster explicitly defended it.

“I doubt it.”

Why? I didn’t even mean that as an attack, just a practical matter. If Lubavitchers put Rebbe pictures on all house walls, and the house serves as the shul, then there’s going to be one on the eastern wall. I personally don’t care, nor do I see why anyone else does.

“It’s forbidden to daven in front of a picture (or even a mirror)”

That wasn’t Yserbius’ point, clearly. If that were the only problem, it wouldn’t matter if it were a painting of a landscape. In any case, people seem to be meikel when davening in their own homes (i.e. I’ve never seen anyone leave their eastern wall undecorated on purpose), so I wouldn’t call it a “big accusation” to claim that they’re among these meikelim.

“he acknowledged that there may be “crazies” who hold these beliefs.”

The fundamental difference is the following: what bothers him about the “crazies” is that they make Chabad look silly. What bothers the other side is that they actually hold l’halacha that those beliefs are kefira. That’s a huge difference, and we can’t pretend they have common ground built around criticizing the vocal “crazies” in Chabad.

Menachem:

It’s going to pretty much be guaranteed to happen in any Chabad that’s a house-shul like I mentioned. Admittedly, I don’t know that I’ve seen it in an actual beis medrash, but I wouldn’t have really noticed it. I’ve never jumped to the assumption that anyone’s kavana was to bow down to the picture as a replacement for Hashem; Chabad just likes putting Rebbe pictures everywhere. Seems like a strange thing for either side of this conversation to make a big deal of.

To everyone else:

You’ve gotten the Lubavitchers either on this thread or elsewhere to admit that they believe the Rebbe is/will be moshiach. You’ve gotten them to admit that they don’t see anything theologically wrong with someone believing the Rebbe is literally alive and sitting in the empty chair in 770. What more are you looking for? If the neutral parties reading this thread still have no objections to Chabad even with those things out in the open, then they never will, no matter how many Litvish gedolim you bring in who say they should.

How did the OP get an outside link through? Was it decided that the blog it leads to is an obvious enough troll that it fits thematically with the YWN Coffee Room?

“Did I say that? I am saying I highly value what they do here, despite whatever other issues are there.”

No, not letting you off this easy; you literally said someone who goes and does mitzvas bikur cholim is a chosid shoteh. You can retract what you said and own up to it, but you can’t pretend you didn’t say it. It’s right here in black and white for all of the world to see.

“I would extend this: the chosid might say – I am on the way to the hospital for bikur cholim or on the way to kollel and learning is keneged kulam.”

So we should stop practicing our religion so we can focus all energy on attracting people back to our religion which we don’t actually practice? I think you’re mixed up on who the “chosid shoteh” is here.

I know you’re not going to listen to me, so maybe talk to whoever in Chabad is clearly influencing you, because even they would object to what you’re saying. Nobody says everyone should be mevatel other mitzvos to focus solely on kiruv.

“Chasam Sofer did not live there.”

He lived between France and Russia, and he presumably didn’t think Napoleon was going to jump over central Europe to reach Russia. Stopping his advance in central Europe means stopping before Russia. Anyway, as I said, I’m sure there are exceptions. I have no idea why it is so important to some people to believe that the Baal Hatanya was a daas yochid on this issue, especially given that it isn’t so cut and dry that Napoleon would have been the worse outcome for the Jews.

“If we can be elitist, why can’t they?
I don’t care if they use it pejoratively. I don’t care if I am the boogie man of their stories. You will hear the same pejoratives in all my misnagdish familiy homes, just in the reverse.”

“We” shouldn’t be allowed to either. If your only objection towards Chabad is an irrational hatred of Chassidim then I have more common ground with the Lubavitchers than I do with you. And, for the benefit of any ignorant onlookers: it is not normal for people to sit around bashing on Chassidim. Mentsh1’s situation is not common.

“This seems to be a daas yachid, as other misnagdim and chasidim welcomed liberation from the Russian empire.”

This is untrue, but I’ve heard many in Chabad circles who also have this misconception. The Chasam Sofer was also anti-Napoleon (as it pertained to Austria-Hungary) as were many what we would now call “chareidi” rabbis. The neologues and reform Jews were the ones who more gleefully supported Napoleon. There might be exceptions, but he definitely was not a “daas yochid.”

“On comparing “kiruv” with “bikur cholim” as just a group’s mitzva.”

You didn’t understand the analogy, and you are downplaying the mitzva of bikur cholim even given your attempt to word it as though you aren’t. In any case, the point was not that they are of equal value. The point was that different groups have different shticks.

“Also, “kiruv” is not a Chabad term”

Kiruv is the term for outreach. I couldn’t care less if Chabad doesn’t like it.

“you have to admit that there is an issue with people doing mitzvos because they make their rebbe happy, doing kiruv because the Lubavitcher rebbe said to do it”

I think I’m officially on “your side” in these threads, but I wouldn’t even agree to that. If their kavana when doing a mitzvah (eg. tefillin) was that it was for the Rebbe rather than Hashem, then obviously that would be wrong, but are you really alleging that to be the case?

It seems like he just decided that kiruv would be modern Chabad’s primary avoda, or niche to fill much like bikur cholim is with Satmar. I don’t see why having a certain mitzvah be extremely encouraged in one’s community would make it any less lishma when done by members of that community.