sechel83

(i forgot) on my post about the rebbe being a navi, i brought up the point that nisbatel nevuah, and i asked you back that the gemara says that yiras chait and anava were also, so will you attack someone who claims your rosh yeshiva or godol has yiras chait or anava?
so stop hacking and learn the sugya, menachem already quoted the sicha, and a rambam to learn.

@mdd thats my point, because we learn chassidus at length and in depth we understand it correctly (look in derech mitzvosecha, shoresh mitzvas hatfilah) the people who dont learn chassidus, see one line out of context and go crazy. and then scream at us for learning kabala cuz they thnk we understand it the same way they do. so whats your pshat?

@arso one of the 13 ikrim is that there is nevuah, the rambam gives simanim on who is a navi which we all saw by the rebbe, signed a psak din that reads as follows
הרינו קובעים בזה פסק הלכה על-פי דין תורתנו הקדושה – מבוסס על ההלכה שברמב”ם פרק ז’ הלכות יסודי התורה הלכה א’, פרק ט’ הלכה ב’ ופרק י’ הלכה א’ – שכבוד קדושת אדמו”ר מלך המשיח יש לו דין נביא ומפורש בשיחותיו הקדושות שמרמז על עצמו שהוא נביא ומובן משיחותיו הקדושות שהוא הוא המלך המשיח, וכן עודד שירת “יחי אדוננו מורנו ורבינו מלך המשיח לעולם ועד”, וכבר אמר לעיני כל ישראל ולעיני כל העולם דברים העתידים להיות ובאו דבריו ונתקיימו במילואם ב’מלחמת ששת הימים’ וב’מלחמת המפרץ’ ועוד ועוד.
ועל כן מחויבים אנו לשמוע לכל אשר יאמר לנו מגדר החיוב לשמוע לדברי הנביא, ובכלל זה – שהוא המלך המשיח ויתגלה אלינו מיד ממש
so if you know any chazal (which from your last attack, it seems not so) you will ask from sotah, well then you will have the same question on anava and yiras chait.
so learn the whole sicha inside, and you wont have questions.

@qwerty613. someone asked a simililar question to the rebbe, the answer is printed in אגרות קודש חלק א אגרת פה, its a long answer with many sources, fascinating answer.

seforim which say that a neshama is a חלק אלקה ממעל
חדושי אגדות מהרש”א (שבת לב, א חלק אלקה בלי תיבת ממעל) פני יהושע ב”מ נח ב, מלבי”ם ישעי’ נ, א (ובכמה מקומות בספרו) העמק דבר ואתחנן ז, י ובכמה מקומות בספרו. ועוד
רמ”ק בספר הפרדס ריש שער לב, ראשית חכמה שער האהבה פ”א ופ”ב ובכ”מ שם. האריז”ל בשער רוח הקודש דף ל”ט ע”א בהוצאת ירושלים – צויין בהערות על תניא ולקוטי תורה פ’ בראשית. שפע טל (למקובל ר’ שבתי שעפטל הורוויץ, תלמיד הרמ”ק) בהקדמה ובארוכה בספרו נשמת שבתי הלוי (שער ד ואילך). של”ה בבית חכמה בסופו (ובכ”מ בספרו) יושר לבב (לבעל משנת חסידים) בית א חדר ד פ”ב. יערות דבש ח”א דרוש א. אור החיים ר”פ בראשית ועוד
it that enough sources? so whoever has an issue with the sicha, 1) they will need to answer all these sources 2) they will need to answer tanya perek 2 (which i understand today, no one has an isse with the baal hatanya, and as time goes on the same will be with the rebbe. (even today almost no one has issues with the rebbe (alot of litvaks say that r shach went against chabad mainly for saying the rebbe is moshiach cuz he weas worried that if it dosent happen, chabad will go off the derech, well now were almost 30 yrs later))).

to much to read today. so ill answer and explain a little for now:
disclaimer this (and any of my other posts)
is my own personal opinion, i dont speak for chabad
my beleif that the rebbe is moshiach has 2 aspects.
1) based on what chassidus is, which is penimius hatorah, its the deepest level of torah called yechida. it reveals סתים דקוב”ה סתים דאורייתא סתים דישראל. and how these three are all one (answers the other attach someone had on עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף) and how nothing else exists in the world – אחדות ה. now what a rebbe means is the leader of the generation who has the neshama called yechida haklalis and he reveals by everyone in the generation their yechida shebinefesh to some extent in galus, this will be complete when moshiach comes. (based mainly on קונטרס ענינה של תורת החסידות) so obviously i beleive the rebbe is moshiach (chassidim always beleived this about their rebbe)
2) the rambam is writing according to halacha how we can tell if someone is moshiach. so the rambam writes ואם יעמד מלך מבית דוד הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצות כדוד אביו. כפי תורה שבכתב ושבעל פה. ויכף כל ישראל לילך בה ולחזק בדקה. וילחם מלחמות ה’. הרי זה בחזקת שהוא משיח. (אם עשה והצליח ובנה מקדש במקומו וקבץ נדחי ישראל הרי זה משיח בודאי.
so in this aspect to me it seems clear thar the rebbe fit chezkas moshiach and so many rabbonim paskend too. the rebbe never finished and came moshiach vadai.
now (according to my understanding of the rambam) the rambam says that if this person who is bichezkas moshiach dies then he’s not moshiach, but that just means that from a halachik look, you may have thought he was moshiach, you only saw in him chezkas moshiach so now since he died, he’s not. but this is all in #2, meaning if im a simple jew who never learned chassidus, and only understands technical things so i have no reason to say the rebbe is moshiach now, (my whole reason when he was alive would be because i saw he fit the rambam) but since i learned chassidus b”h, and i have a deeper understanding on what moshiach is so the rebbe is prosumingly still moshiach (this does not contradict the rambam like i explained)
disclaimer; obviouly the rambam knew all this, but he wrote his sefer for every jew – כקטן כגדול – like he writes in the hakdama.
i hope i was clear enough – but see קונטרס ענינה של תורת החסידות and likutai sichos vol 27 parshas bechukosai

@emunas one: #1 read above.
#2 thanks for the source, but its talking about the idea that the Christians say moshiach already came and is was yoshke, nothing to do with this discussion, i don’t say moshiach already came. and the fact the the ramban published it, well the gemarah was also published. and back to the same question what about the gemarah? and find me a better source that the ramban said moshiach cant come from the dead!

@no mesorah. see tanya אגרת הקדשׁ כו
dont know how to figured that, see קונטרס ענינה של תורת החסידות
(if chassidus is musar of kabala, i might agree with you, but i learned more than a few pages and realized it has nothing to do with either)

@emunas did you even learn exactly what the rebbe said or you just saw it in the dumb book of kefira written by a sonei yisroel?
dumb questions, but im still waiting for a source about theses debates with Christians.
and if you have one, well there are many more reasons why yashke cant be moshiach, and you will still need to answer the gemarah, but first lets start with the source,
2) we find in gemarah many times when goyim asked yidden questions and they just gave them an answer to push them away, its not a source, see i.e sanhedrin beginning of perek chelek, meseches tamid

@qwerty613
i realized recently that litvaks and others too look ar judaism as groups. everyone of each group needs to do the same thing in your opinion, and if you see soome random lubavitcher do something obviously he speaks for the whole lubavitch.
so ill educate you: if you want to know chabad beleifs – learn chabad seforim from the lubavitcher rebbe’s. to know chabad minhagim: – shulchan aruch of the alter rebbe, sh”ut tzemach tzedek, sefer haminhagim chabad. sharai halacha uminhag, shulchan menachem. (main sources of things we may do different than others)
anything else – not from one of the chabad rebbes – doesn’t talk for the whole chabad. and we should judge everyone lkaf schus even if we think he is doing something wrong or has a wrong beleif, and we should look at ourselves maybe we have the same issue, and fix ourselves. (so says the baal shem tov) and especially if i dont even know the halachos of the thing im judging him for, if i just have my mesorah, well maybe he has a different mesorah.

my point is that people think that a big gadol who knows alot of lamdus is likely to be moshiach, well
the rambam says that only halachos of torah will be forever, (not shaklah vitarya, (questions come from a concealment on g-dliness, and kelipa, when moshiach comes, there will be no more kelipa, or concealments on g-dliness))
my point it that some people dont begin to understand what moshiach is!

anyone who says that moshiach can not come from tthe dead, is a kofer in torah. (he’s arguing with a clear gemarah)

my thoughts on some misnagdim who say some chabad says any g-dly terms about the rebbe.
apparently in chabad we have a much greater definition on what is a tzadik, and our understanding (the little we can) and beleif about hashem is also much greater.
so when a chabad says the rebbe lives forever, some litvaks claim “how can you say such a thing? only g-d is forever” (once i heard a misnagdishe rov speak about chabad for saying leolam voed about a person, apperently he dosent know tehillim – 22, suckah perek lulavv vaaravah)
and many claims like this, its the same idea.

כל המיצר לישראל נעשה ראש גיטין נו
similar can be said about chabad, whoever stands up against chabad becomes a gadol, whoever becomes chabad – like r ezra shochat, r’ yosef avraham heller, r shlome zelig feldman all top bochurim of brisk, but when they became chabad, for some reason the litvaks dont care about their gadlus anymore.

why would moshiach be someone who is alive? he will teach torah to moshe rabainu and the avos, who alive today is eligible for that?

im still waiting to see a sefer that says moshiach cant come from the dead? someone?
i love all misnagdim, im sorry if anyone gets offended by the term snag, its just short for misnagdim

can anyone please reference me one source that says clearly that moshiach can not be from the dead?

@ yankel berel , and how do you define a apikores? look in gemarah, 2) so i can decide who is an apikores, cuz i heard lashon hara about him?

@ avira – so? ok the rebbe printed on the parsha, the rebbe is entitled to do different. (btw the rebbe asked his father in law the frierdiker rebbe why he dosent speak ideas in niglah, and he said its not his mission in the world, so apparently the rebbe wanted to do it this way even though he could have printed on rambam and shas and maybe attracted more litvaks (i doubt it, cuz i don’t believe thats the issue misnagdim have). there is a maase the alter rebbe said if he would have taken out certain world of tanya he would have another 100,000 chasidim, but chassidus demands emes.
im just saying that anyone honest to looks into the rebbe’s torah will see. (the rebbe is the only gadol that thousends of hours of his life is on video and audio, and it cant be denied his greatness.
the baba sali wrote to the rebbe the following (you can see it in non chabad sources)
לכבוד קודש הקודשים, עמוד העולם, אור ישראל ותורתו, שלא קם כמותו, שר התורה והוראה, אהוב בשמים ובארץ, מורנו ורבינו הרב מנחם מענדל מליובאוויטש, הנני עבדך הקטן ישראל,
עליתי ממרוקו לארץ ישראל, ואנשים כאן לא נתנוני השב רוחי, באים אלי בכל שעות היום והלילה, ונבצר ממני לעבוד את ה’ כאשר היתה באומנה עימי, ימים ולילות שלא ביטלתי מן התורה רגע אחד.
ועתה נפשי בשאלתי אם אוכל לבוא אליך לארצות הברית לגור על ידך בקרבת מקום, ואסתר מעיני כל איש.
קיבלתי עלי שמה שיורני מורנו הרב אעשה, כיון שהוא עמד העולם, וכך הכריזו עליו בשמים”.
and if there is no misnagdim today, great, that’s what the rebbe said, baruch hashem

there is a place in torah it says its a mitzvah to hate someone – someone who sees his freind do an avaira, now in tanya perek 32, the alter rebbe explains a bit certain conditions for this, and says its also a mitzvah to love him.
sinas chinam means to hate someone for any other “valid” reason besides if you yourself saw him do the avaira etc with all the conditions

somehow every chabad topic turns to moshiach.
b”h chabad taught the world to think about moshiach, i hope one day soon chabad’s love for every jew and acceptance, non judging of every jew will spread to the rest of the world, and we will great moshiach very soon.

square root: If mashiach-from-the-dead really is possible, then why did NOBODY in Chabad / Lubavich believe in mashiach-from-the-dead when Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson was still alive and healthy?
actually before 3 tamuz many litvakts had that claim that moshiach cant be someone alive today cuz of the yeridas hadoros, moshiach must be from the dead. look in yated from those years, or Wikipedia.
but ok so you have a good question? now what? anyway before Lubavitch said the rebbe is moshiach, the world didn’t speak much about it

who was the gaon? just wondering? i hear people say it often, you mean the rogetzover gaon?

@yeshivaguy 45. its not a machlokes, the gemara is just saying “”If Moshiach is from those who are alive now, [then] surely he is Rabbeinu Hakadosh [Rabbi Yehuda HaNassi], who suffers sicknesses and is an absolute saint . . . If he is from those who have already died, [then] he is Daniel, the delightful one, who was condemned to suffer in the lions’ den and was an absolute saint” (rashi)
see the kuntres Shmoi Shel Moshiach
In-depth insights into the sugia of Moshiach min hamaisim from chazal and rishonim
(with haskamos from r’ yitzchok breitowitz, and others)