Avram in MD
Forum Replies Created
-
AuthorPosts
-
Avram in MDParticipant
n0mesorah,
Thank you for the thoughtful reply.
Regarding exclusivity:
“I made this point before. Also, you can find Chabad speakers all over the internet. Other groups are not as public. Maybe you mean something more specific.”
I agree that Chabad’s outreach puts their exclusivity on a bigger display. That’s a big part of it. I do feel however that there’s a difference in degree that goes beyond visibility. The only thing more specific I can say is that the villainizing of other groups makes me particularly uncomfortable due to their broad outreach. It doesn’t seem like a good idea for animosity to be spread along with the Chabad-style chassidus. I’m in a community where Chabad is particularly well integrated with the rest of the frum structure, and I’m in some Chabad focused groups for community info, etc. There’s a lot of MO and BT types who have gravitated towards the local Chabad, sometimes not even because they originally wanted Chabad teachings, but they liked that nobody gives death glares if their kid accidentally breathes in shul, they liked the people, the rabbi, etc. And yet they like to share memes that put down the Litvish or “misnagdim”. I get the desire to identify with your chosen group, and I know there’s some reciprocity, but Chabad’s outreach hits a huge audience, with an exploding number of non-Jews in the mix, and this animosity seems to have a quick uptake. Are we ok with Noahides hating on the “snags”?
“You don’t seem to have a problem with either point other than the debate here is playing both sides. Am I right about that, or do you have an objection to one or both of these points?”
I don’t have a problem with people holding either the idea that kabbalistic mysticism is abstruse or that it can be straightforward. You’re right that it’s the playing both sides that I object to, particularly because the tactic denigrates those with different viewpoints and can shut down discussion.
“Since their knowledge is based on integration as opposed to foundations, they assume we are just lacking in all the confirming information. They do not understand that we are questioning the fundamental concepts.”
“But without accepting the simple form of it, it can’t be understood without really studying it.”
These points are really insightful. I think I agree with you.
Avram in MDParticipantn0mesorah,
“A”Z is not the same as minus.”
Ok, so ctrl-H A”Z to minus in my previous post. It doesn’t really affect the point I was trying to make.
“There is no A”Z here because there is no worship other than going to the ohel … Saying yechi, even including divine identifactions for the rebbe, is never A”Z. It would only be minus with an overall context of a new order. (Order as in teaching, belief, dogma.)”
This seems like pigeonholing to me. Limit the definitions enough and nobody is over! Maybe it’s true, but I don’t know that the other posters agree with your definitions. As far as a group forming a “new order”, I think whether that’s occurring is one of the focuses of this debate. I’ve not really jumped deep into the A”Z/minus/halachos/customs side of the debate. Most of that is beyond my ability to judge. My points (mostly ignored) have been more focused on where Chabad is forming dividing lines with the rest of frum Jewry. The example I’ve brought up a few times is that other frum Jews serve as archtypical villains in their worldview. And yes, you’ve repeatedly advocated a laissez-faire approach, but I disagree. Chabad’s actions and attitudes do have an impact on the rest of Judaism. I’m not ordering them to do or not do anything, nor am I telling them what to think or believe. But I’m interested in having a discussion. Why is that so scary and wicked?
“The easiest way to test the boundaries of klal yisroel is to become a mumar.”
I don’t think this is true at all. It’s another pigeonhole. Frum Jews have always had theological debates.
“Every poster here seems more interested in piling on Chabad for the sillies things, than responding to how they understand these basic concepts. I have come to accept that pettiness is their highest dogma.”
Every poster here? This seems like an unfair exaggeration, with an insult to boot. Maybe I’m misunderstanding something, but Chabad seems to claim that their teachings bring mysticism from the realm of the esoteric to the reach of every Jew. E.g., they’ll preferentially learn Tanya with new BTs who don’t know any gemara, barely any halacha, and have no experience living a frum lifestyle. But when faced with any questions or challenges on these supposedly mystical topics (or whether people are misunderstanding them to great risk), they seem to argue that the concepts are just too esoteric and holy for our stunted little Litvish souls to grasp. It can’t be both ways. If something is truly esoteric, than a simplified explanation to someone unprepared to learn it can lead to misunderstanding. If it’s truly simple to explain, then explain it!
“Maybe you can forgive me for having the opinion that yidden don’t care at all about what it really means to accept the Kingdom of Hashem. They prattle about it a bit for Rosh Hashana and can’t make sense of it. So they move on to the rest of their year.”
I don’t have the authority forgive or not forgive you for writing this, but these cynical words coming from someone seemingly so young is distressing. Perhaps you are used to being the smartest guy in the room all the time, but don’t think for a minute that you can guess or interpret what’s in the hearts of other people, or know what they’re all about. Just like you don’t want others judging the souls and commitment of kids with noses in smartphones all the time.
Avram in MDParticipantn0mesorah,
“Maybe Chabad’s concept of a rebbe is on par with your version of a god. It is not on par with their understanding of Hashem ch”v.”
That seems irrelevant to me. The issue is not with Mdd or Chabad’s conception of G-d, or how powerful or perfect the Lubavitcher Rebbe was, but whether Chabad’s veneration of the Lubavitcher Rebbe is on par with avoda zara or not.
Suppose there was a “Coffeeroomer Rebbe” who knew the future, picked all the Powerball numbers correctly, and kept the posters who listened to him from boarding planes that crashed. And he could zap people with eye lasers. And when he gave someone directions that differed from the actual route, the roads would jump up and realign to what he said. And even after he died, if someone insulted him, an invisible hand would smack that person on the back of the head. We’d still be forbidden from serving or worshipping this Coffeeroomer Rebbe in any way. Because all of his power came from Hashem, and the Torah says we only worship Hashem.
Avram in MDParticipantubiquitin,
“Would you agree that when used as an attributive form of a noun * as in “Jew Lawyer” or “jew bakery” in Avira’s example”
Hmm, have AviraDeArah and I ever been seen in the same room at the same time?
Avram in MDParticipant“Jew” is a noun. “Jewish” is an adjective. When “Jew” is used as an adjective or occasionally a verb, it is almost always meant as a negative epithet. Therefore:
How many Jews live in this town? Not offensive sounding.
That new place is a Jew bakery. Offensive sounding.Other than that, whether it sounds offensive or not depends on the context.
Avram in MDParticipantZaphod Beeblebrox,
“Stupid planes that get delayed on the tarmac and stick me between two incredibly obese mammals”
Yeah! Next time you should just walk, or take a horse-drawn cart on bumpy or muddy rutted wagon roads with bandits in the woods 😀
July 28, 2023 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2211786Avram in MDParticipantNeville ChaimBerlin and Menachem Shmei,
““This is the true story.”
Yet there is seemingly no record of it. I’m not saying you’re in the wrong, but I’ve looked into this before and can’t find a reliable account.”I had never heard of this story until this thread. I don’t know how to access police records, but I did find several contemporaneous records of the incident in print media. First, there was absolutely no justification for violence, so don’t misconstrue anything I write as support for what these attackers did. It does seem that Rabbi Korf was teaching a Satmar kid in a store, rather than a shiur to interested adults. Whether or not he was a hired tutor, or was warned, or whatever, there is no evidence. The issue according to these articles was clearly about an accusation of proselytizing, not anger due to Zionism. The articles all mention that there was feuding between the groups for years. I didn’t see anything about Rabbi Korf getting beaten, but a second younger Chabad Rabbi about a month later, R’ Mendel Wechter, was pulled into a van, also had his beard cut, and was thrown out of the van, requiring hospitalization with a broken ankle and neck lacerations.
Avram in MDParticipantsechel83,
“i figured why not keep litvaks busy about there own “minhagim””
Though I may have missed stuff, the debates here have largely not been about “minhagim”. The closest I’ve seen was on another thread with AviraDeArah regarding sleeping in the sukkah. Even that debate wasn’t about actual practice, however, as many Litvaks and other Jews also do not sleep in the sukkah because of discomfort. That debate was about Chabad’s removing the idea of sleeping in the sukkah completely. Rather the debates are more about hashkafa and beliefs, some of which may manifest themselves into certain practices.
“(i know some will answer, that thats “our minhag/ mesora”, ok so why do you guys criticize chabad (for just believing in gemaras, tzadikim) “
I hope you noticed that, despite the insulting premise of your questions, you received unequivocal and non-defensive answers. Challenges and debates are not the same thing as hatred and persecution.
Avram in MDParticipantMenachem Shmei,
“Really? Is it the Ashkenazi mesorah for over 200 years ago to shave their beards? When Reb Moshe … rules a chidush, you accept this as Ashkenazi mesorah for generations.”
The Ashkenazi mesora is that trimming beards is ok. Rav Moshe ruled that electric “shavers” are equivalent to very short trimming, not shaving/destroying the beard. So yes, we feel the “chidush” is in line with our mesora. It’s not like electric shavers existed 200 years ago, and Rav Moshe upended generations of rulings on electric shavers. And even if he did, he would have provided his reasoning in a manner so well explained that one could follow the chain of the mesora up to the chidush.
“Yet you mock (in disgusting fashion) the psakim and minhagim of 200 years of the holy Chabad rebbes.”
I do not know what Neville ChaimBerlin was referring to with his comment, but I didn’t feel like he was “mocking”. And honestly that statement was not nice, but it pales in comparison to having fellow Jews serve as the boogeymen of your stories – to ingest enmity as a part of your movement’s hashkafa.
July 21, 2023 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2210129Avram in MDParticipantMenachem Shmei,
“It depends. This may be the approach of the more openminded and respectful-of-other-opinions guys. While the more hotblooded my-opinion-is-the-only-opinion guys will rant and rave about the stupidity of those with that opinion, and constantly call them out as crazies.”
Is the literally alive in the flesh really considered a legitimate shita in Chabad? Who then is interred in the ohel? Regarding live and let live, when I was younger, a Chabad synagogue in my area got kicked out of the main organization over a dispute on opening a new Chabad house. The existence of this place was scrubbed from Chabad dot org. Other Chabad houses/rabbis have been ousted over the years for all sorts of reasons, e.g., inviting Yitzchak Rabin to speak, opposing Covid policies, what have you. It seems that Chabad has no qualms about enforcing its preferences up to the point of putting its own shluchim, who have sacrificed much to go into remote locales, into cherem. Why then, when it comes to this issue, does Chabad suddenly become squeamish and “let’s respect everyone’s opinion here”?
“>>>Maybe it’s not so much “denying” the beliefs so much as concealing.
Well said.”
What is the purpose of the concealment?
“Mainly the latter.”
What, in your opinion, is the boundary line between “ridiculous” and avoda zara?
July 20, 2023 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm in reply to: Dreaming About Listening to Music During the Three Weeks #2209948Avram in MDParticipantAlways_Ask_Questions,
“Not eating kitniyos is a minhag, but wearing a hat?! This just got out of hand.”
Lol, black hats are really a stick in your craw, aren’t they? Anyway it was amiricanyeshivish who brought the hats up, and I suspect he feels like you do and was going for irony.
“So, would a person born into a black hat wearing community need a hatara nedarim if he decides to wear his grandfather’s white or gray hat?”
No more than he’d need to if he wanted to wear a blue Union Civil War era jacket instead of a black suit jacket, or a hat with a big feather, or a Napoleon hat, or anything else that differs from the common sartorial choices of the community. If he’s always davened with a hat, however, it may be more of a shaila if he wants to forego a hat completely.
“As to confusion between midrabanan and Torah, isn’t it how we read the story of Adam and Hava making a takono not to _touch_ the grape?”
Off topic – I notice that your transliterated ח’s go from ch to h when you’re in a more trollish mood, I wonder what it means.
On topic – yes and no. Chava’s addition of “we cannot touch it” gave the snake the opportunity to increase the confusion that he started when he initially opened the conversation with the incorrect, “so Hashem said you cannot eat from any of the trees in the garden?” And that’s not the only inaccuracy/addition she had. She also added the term “fruit” to the command, and she said the tree of knowledge was in the center of the garden, whereas we were told previously only that the tree of life was in the center. She desired the fruit both physically and intellectually, and her changes to the description of the tree and the command seem to reflect that desire. When the snake pushed her against the tree and she did not instantly die, she could have thought many things. Hashem didn’t punish me because my touching it was unintentional. Maybe the punishment isn’t instantaneous. Whatever. But instead, she used the confusion as a means to rationalize, and she ate the fruit. Just like someone stealing from a store may rationalize that it’s a victimless crime, they have insurance, whatever. Maybe she was “confused” about some things, but she wasn’t confused about the eating being forbidden. She knew Hashem did not want that.
July 20, 2023 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2209924Avram in MDParticipantNeville Chaim Berlin,
“Untrue. He admitted on one of these threads to the belief that Moshiach will be the Rebbe.”
I don’t recall that, but it’s possible. I haven’t been following the ins and outs of all the threads too closely.
“He [seemingly] defended those who believe the Rebbe is alive at the front of 770 after another poster explicitly defended it.”
I didn’t read the “so what” as a defense, but more of a “I’m not responsible for what others believe and do”, which I disagree with. Many people here are arguing that belief in the Rebbe being the Moshiach with deity-like powers or even a deity mamash is a mainstream belief within Chabad, and that some Lubavitchers only make a feint of objection because they know the beliefs are unacceptable to other frum Jews and therefore try to hide the beliefs. I prefer to take what Menachem Shmei is writing at face value, and if I wanted to dive into the theological debates, what I’d wonder is – if indeed the mainstream majority of Chabad thinks these “crazies” are wrong, and even falling into avoda zara, at what point do they make a real break and clearly define their shita? And Menachem’s other point that our disagreement is mainly on understanding the terminology of chassidus… if so, the crazies are also seemingly “misunderstanding” the lingo and hence falling into kefira. How then does Chabad insure that things are taught correctly?
Perhaps more in support of your position, Menachem Shmei tried to draw a distinction between “meshichism” and “elokism” by noting that the “yechi” litany does not contain “boreinu”. I don’t think this helps, because avoda zara is not limited to just thinking that something other than Hashem created us. In fact, the original avoda zara acknowledged Hashem as the original Creator, but held that Hashem gave power and control to other beings, who could then be petitioned or praised independently. That and ascribing powers to people or things that do not have such powers.
“If Lubavitchers put Rebbe pictures on all house walls, and the house serves as the shul, then there’s going to be one on the eastern wall.” … That wasn’t Yserbius’ point, clearly.” … “In any case, people seem to be meikel when davening in their own homes (i.e. I’ve never seen anyone leave their eastern wall undecorated on purpose)”
Even in smaller Chabad houses, it’s not like davening in someone’s living room. They set up a room as a functional shul, with an aron kodesh, bima, amud, mechitza, etc. So no, I would not expect pictures to be on the wall at the front of that room. If a picture of the Lubavitcher Rebbe was placed there at the front, with the aron kodesh and amud, it would be a deliberate act and a statement with clear theological ramifications. Yserbius123 obviously thought that, because he brought it up with hyperbolic flair. I thought that, and Menachem Shmei obviously thought that based on his responses. So I’m not sure that it’s me who’s missing the point.
Yes in a normal living room setup there’s likely pictures on the wall, but the room was not intentionally set up for davening. When I daven at home I stand close to the wall and davka not directly in front of a picture or mirror. When I’m at someone else’s house, it’s harder, but I try to not be directly in front of pictures.
July 19, 2023 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2209713Avram in MDParticipantNeville ChaimBerlin,
“It’s going to pretty much be guaranteed to happen in any Chabad that’s a house-shul like I mentioned.”
I doubt it.
“I’ve never jumped to the assumption that anyone’s kavana was to bow down to the picture as a replacement for Hashem; Chabad just likes putting Rebbe pictures everywhere.”
There’s many steps before literally bowing down and replacing.
“Seems like a strange thing for either side of this conversation to make a big deal of.”
It’s forbidden to daven in front of a picture (or even a mirror), so Yserbius123 was making a pretty big accusation.
“What more are you looking for? If the neutral parties reading this thread still have no objections to Chabad even with those things out in the open, then they never will, no matter how many Litvish gedolim you bring in who say they should.”
So my goal in participating in this thread wasn’t to get people to object to Chabad, but rather to have a discussion and debate, with the possibility that we could understand each other better.
July 19, 2023 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2209715Avram in MDParticipantYserbius123,
“You’ve already admitted to multiple beliefs”
What’s it like to be completely unencumbered by the concepts of truthfulness and accuracy? Menachem Shmei didn’t “admit” to having these beliefs; he acknowledged that there may be “crazies” who hold these beliefs. To ask how pervasive the beliefs are, why Chabad seems to tolerate them, and at what point it crosses the boundary from “tipshus” to “apikorsus” seem to be legitimate questions.
Avram in MDParticipantThe Frumguy,
“What can be done?”
Forbid your kids from getting drivers licenses.
July 17, 2023 10:56 am at 10:56 am in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2208946Avram in MDParticipantMenachem Shmei,
“I honestly request that you name the Chabad Houses that you’ve seen with a picture of the Rebbe on mizrach vant, because something like this is a huge issue that must be addressed”
In this era where so many people are carrying a camera with them at all times, I doubt such a place actually exists.
Avram in MDParticipantDaMoshe,
“I’ve always been fascinated by life underwater.”
If it rains much more, we’ll be able to whale watch from the comfort of our living room windows!
July 17, 2023 10:30 am at 10:30 am in reply to: Dreaming About Listening to Music During the Three Weeks #2208928Avram in MDParticipantamirican yeshivish,
“Of course not. But if someone finds he “can’t” keep Shabbos anymore he is by defenition not frum. But if he “can’t” eat cholov yisroel that is not the case. The same would be about the Yeshiva guy who “can’t” wear a hat and jacket or the Satmar guy who starts eating OU.”
In the majority of circumstances, one who “can’t” wear a hat and jacket anymore is not due to contact rashes, sensory issues, or the like. Because in those cases the guy would speak with his rav and figure out what to do. No, we’re talking about a person who’s likely developed a deep distaste for a certain segment of klal Yisroel, and is rebelling against it or trying to distance himself from it. By chalav stam or hechshers, perhaps there’s financial or dietary issues at play, but again, a connected Jew would speak with his rav, and what we’re talking about here is most likely also a rebellion. The fact that such a person might land in a place that is nominally acceptable by some other segments of frumkeit is fortunate, but the spiritual situation that leads to the change is not much different than the guy who just “can’t” keep Shabbos anymore.
“I was told of someone who was looking desperatly erev Yom Kippur for a chicken for kapporres and wouldn’t hear the tzad to use money, but was saying he doesn’t plan on fasting because “Hashem loves me and for sure doesn’t care if I fast or not””
Whatever.
July 17, 2023 10:21 am at 10:21 am in reply to: Dreaming About Listening to Music During the Three Weeks #2208923Avram in MDParticipantamirican yeshivish,
“I say this because i find it important to diffrenciate. I know of a Chabad person who went OTD because she ate Cholov Stam and then threw in the towel (nebach) because anyways she did an aveirah…”
This is a common polemic against minhagim or chumros, but it’s rather silly. If someone “throws in the towel” because they believe they did an aveira, ate chalav stam, or flipped a switch on Shabbos, or slept past the zman, or whatnot, their problems are way beyond whether they are aware of what’s a derabbanan or a deoraisa. If someone goes ballistic and burns down a hotel because the scrambled eggs at the breakfast buffet were cold at 10am, would your main takeaway from the incident be how important it is for hotels to keep their eggs hot?
July 14, 2023 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm in reply to: Dreaming About Listening to Music During the Three Weeks #2208431Avram in MDParticipantWolfishMusings,
I’m a BT, which means unfortunately that I used to eat non-kosher. I have occasional dreams where I find myself suddenly in a non-kosher restaurant or cafeteria, having just eaten or being in the middle of eating. I then realize what I’m doing or did, and feel horrified, and I’m relieved when I wake up.
May you have a refuah shleima and a wonderful Shabbos!
July 14, 2023 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2208423Avram in MDParticipantMenachem Shmei,
“The vast majority of shuls I’ve been to don’t have a picture of the Rebbe in shul at all (they will often have one in the hallway or lobby).”
This has been my observation as well, though I’m sure my sample size is much smaller than yours.
July 14, 2023 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2208422Avram in MDParticipantAviraDeArah,
“So because i don’t accept their accounts as a given, i chose not to passel a yid who I know nothing about, who for all i know could have been a very good jew.”
Sounds like a good policy to have, thanks.
July 14, 2023 12:32 am at 12:32 am in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2208314Avram in MDParticipantMenachem Shmei,
“I must say, this is not a very honest comparison.”
Curious as to why you chose to describe the point as not honest as opposed to incorrect or mistaken.
“In this case, the Alter Rebbe was just released from prison, where he was arrested for treason (death sentence r”l) because of a libel by the misnagdim”
Of the misnagdim? Collective blame? Did they get 30 pieces of silver? Did they declare his blood be on us and our children forever?
“of which Reb Noteh Notkin was very outspoken and instrumental.”
Guilt by association?
July 13, 2023 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2208313Avram in MDParticipantAviraDeArah,
“Chabad .org calls nota notkin a leader of misnagdim….he wasn’t a rov according to articles online about him; definitely wasn’t a gadol or rov of a community…”
I couldn’t find much information about him, but it seems he was more of a maskil than a misnagid. He did a lot of advocating for Jews to the Russian government, but he also sought to open schools where Russian language and other secular subjects would be taught, and to try and bring Jews into civil service (and hence out of the Pale of Settlement).
July 13, 2023 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2208254Avram in MDParticipantmentsch1,
“Any one self identifying as a misnagid is doing so bc he doesn’t respect the chassidik philosophy.”
Not so. Exhibit A: CTLAWYER.
“Do you really see a major difference between the word snag and telling someone his practices are akin to avodeh zara?”
Yup. And I’ve already explained it above. Let me know if you need all-caps.
July 13, 2023 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2208197Avram in MDParticipantCTLAWYER,
“As I mentioned in a comment, I had never seen or heard the term SNAG until reading it in this thread. It is not a derogatory term uttered aloud in the OOT communities I’ve lived in.”
B”H. It does seem to be more prevalent in “online” spaces.
“In about 7 decades of life Misnagid has only been used as self description and see when reading Jewish history.”
I never heard or learned the term misnagid until I encountered Chabad. The terms I heard to describe Jews from my grandparents and frum relatives were Litvak, German (not Yekke), Chassidic, MO, etc.
July 13, 2023 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2208195Avram in MDParticipantmentsch1,
“So explain to me how I am the one spewing hatred and you are the mentsch?”
Well, you’ve called him obtuse twice now and implied that he’s debating with disingenuous intentions, whereas he’s just disagreed with you.
July 13, 2023 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2208194Avram in MDParticipantmentsch1,
“I make the same point, we all prefer our own minhagim and to an extent look down on the minhagim and philosophies of others as being strange.”
Preferring one’s own minhagim is not the same thing as looking down on other minhagim.
“why is it worse when a lubavitcher calls me a snag than when I roll my eyes and make a comment when i see a chassid driving after shkia on erev shabbos?”
I wouldn’t recommend rolling your eyes and making “comments”, because that’s not nice. But calling someone a name is most definitely worse than objecting to a practice. Because the former dehumanizes, while the latter is a halachic or hashkafic dispute. If a chassid tells me that since I bring non-CY dairy into my house he cannot eat from my dairy dishes, and he thinks it’s wrong, and chalav stam is chalav akum, that’s a halachic dispute and not inherently an insult. I can choose to be insulted if I were immature. I could discuss and debate with him, which might be interesting. Or I could accommodate him and still welcome him to my home. If he calls me a snag or sheigetz, however, that’s a dehumanizing slur and most definitely an insult.
July 13, 2023 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2208189Avram in MDParticipantmentsch1,
“I will repeat
If we can be elitist, why can’t they?”Stop right there, and take me out of that we. You can speak for yourself only.
“I don’t care if they use it pejoratively. I don’t care if I am the boogie man of their stories.”
Well, I do care, and so do many other Jews I know.
“You will hear the same pejoratives in all my misnagdish familiy homes, just in the reverse.”
Not in my home, and not in homes I’ve visited. I think the worst I’ve heard was a story involving a Lubavitcher (non-insulting), where in describing him the guy said, “and he was a real Lubavitcher, with the shmushed hat and everything”.
“If all misnagdim were careful to always treat the differing philosophies of their fellow Jews with the utmost respect, then I can hear calling out a segment who doesn’t act the same.”
Or perhaps you can give tochacha to those who slur or villainize, whether they are Litvish, Chabad, or whoever. Because two wrongs don’t make a right.
“But the whole point of self identifying as a misnagid is showing that you don’t respect the other philosophy.”
I don’t self identify as a misnagid.
July 13, 2023 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2208176Avram in MDParticipantMenachem Shmei,
“Although it is know simply as “Yud Tes Kislev” – Chabad actually celebrates Yud Tes & Chof Kislev.”
Ok, I was off by a day in my recollection. My question still remains, however: the time spent with a misnagid was so odious that it was equivalent to being imprisoned falsely by gentiles? The story never really sat right with me, because the “screaming” and the serving tea seem so incongruous. And the idea that being questioned by another Jew is equivalent to being victimized. R’ Moshe Feinstein ZT”L encountered strong opposition to some of his rulings (e.g., chalav stam) from chassidishe rebbes, and some of their disciples even behaved rudely towards him, but the Jews who opposed him were not enshrined in American Litvak lore as being villains.
July 13, 2023 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2208174Avram in MDParticipantMenachem Shmei,
“all Lubavitchers that I know consider this unacceptable, and this is the chinuch that is given.”
Good to know.
July 13, 2023 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2208172Avram in MDParticipantAviraDeArah,
“the difference is that the child sees the reaction from the parents. Here, they are actively imagining the pleasure their revbe gets from their actions instead of imagining the pleasure Hashem gets from it”
Maskim
July 12, 2023 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2207964Avram in MDParticipantAviraDeArah,
“but you have to admit that there is an issue with people doing mitzvos because they make their rebbe happy”
This is not something that is unique to Chabad. It’s childish, but even adults retain some of childhood. A 4-year old washes his hands and makes a nice, loud al netilas yadayim mostly because it puts a smile on mommy and totty’s faces, with some understanding that there is Hashem who commanded it. A man who davens a bit slower in shul than he does when alone, or puts on a tie when going to shul but not at home, etc. is largely the same as that 4-year old.
“doing kiruv because the Lubavitcher rebbe said to do it”
I don’t see this as problematic either. Years ago, my rav at the time told me a dishwasher cannot be kashered. So I’ve never done so, despite knowing other opinions say it’s possible (replace racks, 3 cycles, etc.), because I asked a shaila on what to do and the rav said what to do.
“feeling safe because they are carrying a picture of him in their pocket, asking him for help directly, thinking that he can read your mind all the time, and more.”
These are certainly problematic.
July 12, 2023 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2207909Avram in MDParticipantMenachem Shmei,
“When the Alter Rebbe was freed from the Peter Paul Fortress before evening on Yud-Tes Kislev, 5559 (1798)”
I once heard from a Chabad source that he was freed before yud tes Kislev, but the Chabad holiday is celebrated on yud tes Kislev itself because he was accidentally delivered to the house of a misnagid who objected to and questioned him about chassidic beliefs (while serving him tea). And he was “rescued” from the clutches of this misnagid after dark. So the time spent with a misnagid was so odious that it was equivalent to being imprisoned falsely by gentiles?
July 12, 2023 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2207907Avram in MDParticipantMenachem Shmei,
First I want to express that I appreciate your willingness to politely and respectfully engage in this debate.
“>>>Unfortunately, for many simple, and some not so simple Chasidim fear of G-d is hardly mentioned: just fear of their Rebbe
This is no longer an ideological discussion but a false accusation. “
I agree that this was an untrue generalization; however, I’m curious if you have a response to the other things Jude wrote that were not generalizations. I was in a mainstream Chabad shul a few weeks ago and saw a fellow with a photo of the rebbe on his shtender while he was davening. I know you’d acknowledge that every group has their “nuts”, but when the nuts start playing with fire in your building, at what point do you do something about it?
July 12, 2023 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2207904Avram in MDParticipantmentsch1 and CTLAWYER,
Whether or not your families self-identify as misnagdim is largely irrelevant to this conversation, as is the literal meaning of the word. The issue is when Jews are called misnagdim or snags as a pejorative. Always_Ask_Questions brought up “Ivri” (Hebrew) as an example of self-identifying in opposition, and that’s fine. But when a gentile calls a Jew a “Heeb”, it’s a pejorative. The label “Perushim” was also meant as a separator in the days of Bayis Sheini, but when a Christian calls someone a “Pharisee” it’s not meant as a nice thing. Misnagdim are the villains in Chabad stories, so regardless of what anyone calls themselves, it’s not nice for someone to call their fellow Jews villains. And snag is always a pejorative. It’s as simple as that.
- This reply was modified 3 weeks, 6 days ago by YW Moderator-33.
- This reply was modified 3 weeks, 6 days ago by Avram in MD.
June 30, 2023 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2204672Avram in MDParticipantSACT5,
“In my ignorant open-minded not-so-frum opinion its controversial because if it was an “official” position that the Rebbe is the mashiach it would cause Lubavitch to become a new splinter religion like one of many splinter groups that have their origins in Judaism.”
The belief that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is the Moshiach, assuming it’s the traditional Jewish definition of Moshiach, in of itself would not cause the formation of a new religion. Changing the definition of Moshiach to deify the Lubavitcher Rebbe would, as would any abrogation of Torah and mitzvos.
“The biggest difference between Judaism and Christianity is accepting “you know who” as the messiah.”
It goes way beyond that. They worship him as a god. They conceive of their deity as a trinity. They see the Torah as superseded, and the covenant between the Jewish people and Hashem as abrogated in favor of believers in their deity.
“Between the different groups within Judaism today the major differences are all generally based on religious practices not theology.”
This is generally true when referring to Orthodox Judaism, though there are some minor theological differences at times. The debates in these Chabad threads are largely theological, which may be why they’re so dramatic. When referring to non-Orthodox Jewish movements, however, there are absolutely major theological differences.
“Very recently I realized that Chabad checks all of the boxes I have been looking for so I plan to really explore what they offer. There are limited choices for observant Jewish experiences where I live and I am quite thankful for the opportunities they provide.”
Kol hakavod! May you have much hatzlacha and bracha on your journey.
Avram in MDParticipantOrthodoxrabbi1995,
“I think a movement who believes their teachings came from moshiach(story with the baal shem tov) and need to be spread in order for him to come naturally are gonna think one who doesnt learn them is not getting all the spirituality one needs. Idk what else u expect there.”
Thank you for the candid answer.
“I think they would say they have an emes which rav chaim isnt tapping into and a kesher to the nasi which rav chaim doesnt have and that if rav chaim tapped into it he would be even greater.”
I personally would not dare to judge a gadol of Rav Chaim’s stature in that manner.
“He suggested another word to use for day to day interactions.”
What word is that?
June 28, 2023 11:53 am at 11:53 am in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2203795Avram in MDParticipantNo, Chabad is not obsessed over or brought up frequently (if ever) in non-Chabad circles. The CR is not representative of the real world. On the Internet, one thread inspires another, and a bunch of discussion comes in a wave that crests then troughs. Think of the phrase going viral. The “Chabad inspires” thread was started by a provocateur. The “RCA statement” thread was started in response to that thread, etc. This forum is designed to promote debate.
June 28, 2023 11:14 am at 11:14 am in reply to: Problem with Melech HaMashiach from the Dead #2203742Avram in MDParticipantOrthodoxrabbi1995,
“There is a particular minority section who annoyingly(to put it lightly) proclaims it and have more right leaning views. Most dont like them.”
Is it a particular unliked minority who uses the term “snag” and believe that those who don’t ascribe to Chabad chasidus are spiritually inferior?
“But even the ones that dont like them think the rebbe is moshiach.”
Unfortunately, the beis hamikdash is not rebuilt. The knowledge of Hashem is not filling the world as water fills the seas. The Jewish people are not ingathered into E”Y under the rule of a G-d fearing king. Clearly the Moshiach has not arrived yet. Chabad teaches that there is always somebody in the world who has the potential to be the Moshiach. The Lubavitcher Rebbe passed away and is no longer in this world. So, would you say that, since you believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe is the Moshiach, that there is no longer somebody in this world who has the potential to be the Moshiach?
“you clearly have a lot more issues here with lubavitch than the messianism.”
I never claimed that my questions or “issues” were limited to messianism. Nor did I say Chabad is intolerable. And rather than address what I wrote, even to state that I’m incorrect, this statement insinuates that the “issues” reside with me rather than with the actions I described, which is gaslighting.
The reason messianism “tops the list” is partly because of the proclaiming and proselytizing that you say is coming from a minority group, but also because the lines dividing reverence for a rebbe, messianism and deification seem to be getting blurry.
Avram in MDParticipantlakewhut,
“We learn from Korach not to get involved with Machlokes”
You don’t shy away from machlokes when the topic is politics.
Avram in MDParticipantcoffee addict,
“So Lubavitchers believe their rebbe is moshiach and can come from the dead, so what? It isn’t an aveirah (maybe a shtus) and they won’t listen to you and you won’t listen to them”
Because they proselytize it. I have been given pamphlets declaring that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Melech Hamoshiach and that it is my duty as a Jew to proclaim it. Not only that, my community is called “Snags” derisively, and declared to be spiritually dead. And my ancestors are the villains of their stories, chillingly similar to how the “scribes and Pharisees” are the villains of the Xian bible. And they have set themselves up to be the first point of contact with gentiles and non-frum Jews. And if someone like me were to ask a question such as why is it ok to proclaim someone to be Moshiach when the specific things that are supposed to happen at the coming of the Moshiach have not happened yet, or why have I seen people in Chabad shuls davening with a picture of the Lubavitcher Rebbe on their shtender, it’s declared to be sinas chinam?
Avram in MDParticipantThere was a lot of push back to this thread. Some specific responses to somejewiknow:
“because the specific ideology you are looking to criticize, is a criticism that has no toeles plus you are doing it very publicly to an audience that it not connected to the proponents of the ideology.”
1. What makes it have no toeles? I’m not convinced that it does or it does not, but you made a definitive statement and I’m wondering what you’ve based it on.
2. AviraDeArah has been debating extensively with Chabad proponents on other threads. There are many Chabad posters in the CR. This kashya was not stated in a rude way.“Your question lacks any sincerity. If you really want to know the answer to your question, for yourself, you would ask” [snip]”
Are all questions asked on the CR insincere? Or just ones asked about Chabad? And why do you see yourself as a gatekeeper on what’s ok or not ok to ask in the CR? And at the end of the day, the OP didn’t even ask a question.
“On top of that, the issue you bring up has been well discussed and debated and you (seemingly) are not bringing anything new to the conversation.”
Actually, it has not, and I have never heard a clear and cogent answer to this question.
“You are just a bully trying to get people to think bad on other holy Jews. sinas chinam.”
Neither the OP nor AviraDeArah made any personal attacks in this thread. This, however, was a personal attack. AviraDeArah expresses his opposition to certain ideologies quite strongly and in a way that seems to inflame passions, and he is sometimes too quick to declare a statement kefira without first getting clarification, but I cannot recall him ever personally attacking or disrespecting another poster. And that is despite other posters frequently attacking him personally, calling him names (e.g., “Aveirah”), and even subtly threatening him.
Avram in MDParticipantI am opposed to a like button. People here write to get responses, not likes. If we starting posting for likes, it would alter the flow of threads, and provide motivation to try and slam dunk on your opponent with a sharp and witty comeback rather than have a dialog or debate. Also, people could “pile on” with the likes (or dislikes), elevating some opinions and suppressing others. That’s a recipe for groupthink.
Avram in MDParticipantYabia Omer,
“You have data to back that up?!”
It’s not an apples-to-apples comparison. And you and AviraDeArah would likely have to first come to mutually agreeable definitions of BT and frum to even begin an attempt at comparing.
June 15, 2023 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm in reply to: Chabad Inspires all Jews to Yearn for Mashiach #2200025Avram in MDParticipantAlways_Ask_Questions,
“black-ha(ugh)tiness”
Kol haposel, b’mumo posel
June 15, 2023 11:46 am at 11:46 am in reply to: Chrstians claiming Rabbi wrote note naming Moshiach #2200023Avram in MDParticipantrightwriter,
“Does anyone know about this note and can explain how they got this idea?”
They do anything and everything to try and prove the validity of their deity. They take pesukim out of context (or outright mistranslate them) and claim them as proof texts. In his debates with the Ramban, Pablo Christiani even tried to prove their deity from statements in the gemara! They consider a Jewish person apostatizing R”L to be a big win for their cause. So really there’s no big explanation needed for how they’d get this idea. They’ll find a statement, warp its meaning, and run with it.
Avram in MDParticipantRocky,
“I know of several shuls (outside of SI) which host a weekly kiddush using shul funds. If they have a sponsor, fine, but if not, they pay for it with communal funds. Although the officers of the shul are doing this to promote social interaction among members, I find it to be a wasteful use of communal funds.”
Why stop there? Do they have a Thursday night cholent? Chas veshalom is there coffee, drinks or snacks at the shiurim? Should we count how many siddurs and chumashim they have on the shelf and run a comparison to the typical crowd size? Do the sifrei Torah really need silver crowns? Maybe they should just have one sefer Torah and roll it on Rosh Chodesh, etc. Do they put tablecloths on the tables on Shabbos? Are the bookshelves higher quality than the cheapest you can find at Ikea? A silver menorah for Chanukah?
1. Reb Eliezer was quite clear on what the funds would be used for, so I don’t think you have to worry that your donation will go towards a piece of kugel a kid accidentally drops on the floor
2. A small weekly kiddush is not the elephant in a shul’s budget, especially if the kiddushes are frequently sponsored
3. A kiddush may draw more people to daven at the shul, and these people get aliyos and make pledges and pay membership duesJune 5, 2023 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm in reply to: Bridging the Gap Between The Torah World and MO #2195862Avram in MDParticipantujm,
“the MO Jew telling a Chareidi that you cannot eat the food from my home since my keilim were used to make Cholov Stam food and/or I used my pots and pans, dishes and utensils with food products using hechsheirim that you hold isn’t acceptable. Therefore I’ll feed you with prepackaged food with a heimishe hechsher and I’ll serve it to you on paper good and plastic utensils.”
This is hachnasas orchim! The goal of feeding people is to make them feel comfortable.
June 5, 2023 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm in reply to: Bridging the Gap Between The Torah World and MO #2195861Avram in MDParticipantDaMoshe,
“There are many chumros that the yeshivish world keeps, and that’s fine. … Here are some examples:
Mixed seating at simchos… Tznius… Chalav Yisrael…”None of these chumros were invented in the past week, or even in the last generation. And none of them were made without rabbinical guidance.
“Mixed seating at simchos – there is no halachic need for separate seating, yet many yeshivish people expect everyone to do it”
I don’t think they “expect” everyone to do it. And “many yeshivish people” may indeed view it as a halachic issue. So when they’re invited to a mixed simcha, they have to figure out how to navigate it.
“and will tell you that there’s something wrong with having mixed seating.”
Other than online debating forums like this one, how often does this happen to you in real life? Are you making mixed seating simchos in New Square or Kiryas Yoel? Are your family members largely yeshivish or chassidish? Are you inviting tons of yeshivish and chassidish people to your simchos? Because I doubt yeshivish and chassidish people are out roaming the streets of Teaneck looking for simchos to criticize.
“Tznius – many, many chumros were instituted. Knees and elbows covered isn’t enough anymore. Now you need everything down to the toes. Leggings aren’t ok, only tights are.”
Yeah, there’s some variability in communal dress standards. But women in Yeshivish communities don’t typically wear dresses to the floor. Your description seems like scattershot stereotypes.
“Chalav Yisrael – it’s a chumrah, yet this gets pushed by so many people. I even know of one person who threw out a Reese’s bar rather than give it to someone who eats chalav stam.”
I have no idea what went on regarding the Reece’s candy incident, but are MO communities free of jerks? Through personal experience, I can say unfortunately not. Should I paint an entire community based on negative interactions with a handful of people? Re: chalav stam, for some it’s a chumrah, but for others (e.g., Satmars, Chabad), it’s considered chalav akum and completely forbidden.
“I don’t view yeshivish people as being more frum than me. It’s a different derech, and both are valid. I don’t try and push my derech on others. I’d like the same respect in return.”
This feels like moved goalposts to me. The point of your previous post was why right wing MO supposedly refuse to identify as yeshivish. And the tone of your criticisms indicates both that you do not indeed see the derech as valid, and that your picture of them is more of a caricature than reality.
-
AuthorPosts